redzip
Junior Member
Posts: 1,701 
|
Post by redzip on Sept 17, 2014 2:49:03 GMT
Try him in a side pull. I had to start Zippy over again in a side pull, until I found a bit he liked. He was, and still can be at times, quite FUSSY with a bit. But he really loves his side pull. Now I ride him in this bit,.., www.jefferspet.com/medium-port-butterfly/camid/EQU/cp/RD-FC/cn/1101511/He seems to really like it, and fusses the least of several bits I tried. Don't know what kind of saddle you have but,.., I find the one thing I HATE about my TexTan flex trail style saddle is that it really rolls on my little low withered QH.
Just slips to the left bc I think I tend to lean/bare more weight on that stirrup.
Your guy sounds like my Zippy,., and it took LOTS of ground work,
TIME, amd PATIENCE to help him begin to come around.
As well, my trainer has helped with what I couldn't do at the canter.
We are finally getting there. |
|
|
|
Post by Shelly on Sept 17, 2014 3:23:26 GMT
I agree with red zip, I love my side pull with sheldon  I find them more forgiving then a hack |
|
|
|
Post by horselover4life on Sept 17, 2014 10:36:42 GMT
Don't have a side-pull and know even less about them than a hack....so really lost on that one.
The whole thing of it is...he can pack a bit when he wants to quietly and with no issue, then get nervous and start the head tossing, chewing and non-stop fussing.
When we first got him and tried him out, he was quiet in this bit...we have not "abused" his mouth, but he also had not been ridden to out knowledge in at least 5 months.
Now, he comes home...gets ridden occasionally, lunged just to keep him more in condition with a halter {to hot to ride}...and this is what I deal with with his face...
It is just so frustrating.!!! 
As for the saddle...it has a tree.
I won't buy a treeless saddle.
I believe any of us are to heavy for a treeless. I want that tree to help distribute the weight better. Yes, my guy has a lower wither too which might not be helping my saddle issues either. 
I'm going to try the mullen mouth, if that doesn't work the hack...if that doesn't work will look to borrow a side-pull and then be searching for "how do you....".
Hoping though that the mullen mouth might do the trick.
I saw the Butterfly bit red....another option we may try.
I know where one of those is I can borrow.
Thanks everyone for the help. 
|
|
redzip
Junior Member
Posts: 1,701
|
Post by redzip on Sept 17, 2014 10:59:59 GMT
Side pulls are bitless and used to teach most young, or green, horses about steering.
Just a nose band with rings on the sides, so there is no bit to become fussy about.
Less severe than a hackamore, and with more control over the nose than a Dr. Cooks.
Very simple, and works off the sides of the face.
|
|
|
|
Post by lorddaxter on Sept 17, 2014 11:47:59 GMT
HL4L I rode the same way in a hack as I did with a bit. As far as applying pressure do it lightly to start with. The nose piece should hang below the cheeks. Here is a pic of the hack you have I think. Which is called a mechanical Hackamore. If used un-properly it can be as severe as any other bit. It works off of pressure on the nose. The weight of it may get him to drop his head down too. thehorsepedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/hackamore.jpgTo me that looks set too low, just remember it should not sit below the end of the nose bone. 2-3 fingers is what I was taught for your question:) |
|
|
|
Post by horselover4life on Sept 17, 2014 13:32:32 GMT
OK...so by description of a "side-pull".... my halter and a shank on each metal lower side ring {the one closest the mouth} would be equivalent or darn close?
I'm just nervous giving up that much "control".
My experience is riding with "iron", aka a bit, in the mouth. Taking that away is slightly nerve-wracking to me on a horse I barely know what to expect from him yet. OK...makes me nervous A LOT!
I as a kid rode my horse with halter and shanks all the time..but I knew him and him me.
I am so trusting you guys.......
I know you would never give me advice that could.....
I love having you guys as friends..... and being able to ask for help without ridicule...
|
|
redzip
Junior Member
Posts: 1,701
|
Post by redzip on Sept 17, 2014 14:19:24 GMT
OK...so by description of a "side-pull".... my halter and a shank on each metal lower side ring {the one closest the mouth} would be equivalent or darn close?
I'm just nervous giving up that much "control".
My experience is riding with "iron", aka a bit, in the mouth. Taking that away is slightly nerve-wracking to me on a horse I barely know what to expect from him yet. OK...makes me nervous A LOT!
I as a kid rode my horse with halter and shanks all the time..but I knew him and him me.
I am so trusting you guys.......
I know you would never give me advice that could.....
I love having you guys as friends..... and being able to ask for help without ridicule...
Sipe pulls are very gentle and work off the sides of the horses face. You could certainly start with the least pressure and work your way up to more pressure if necessary. I consider a side pull to be less pressure than a hackamore, and less pressure than a bit. You can still do a 'one rein stop' with it if he gets strong. Have you practiced doing one rein stops and lateral flexing with him,., getting him soft in the face, head and neck? As CA says, thats your emergency brake, horses can run thru bits, and pulling back on 2 reins doesn't stop a runaway either. A one rein stop takes away anything the horse can brace against. Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted |
|
redzip
Junior Member
Posts: 1,701
|
Post by redzip on Sept 17, 2014 14:38:26 GMT
One thing I do think hackamores work is poll pressure.
I think the shank of the hack helps tip the nose down and in.
Sidepulls work for steering, not so much for head set.
BUT, riding with more leg pressure (driving the horse forward), quiet, low, 'giving' hands should,
over time, encourage a softer face.
Also LOTS of lateral flexion, leads to vertical flexion.
That is a problem I have with Zippy, altho the bit does NOT encourage a lowered head.
Roll backs along the fence, working around cones
(currently I'm using the small holes that Zip digs as my spaced cones),
serpentines, stopping and backing, side pass, turn on forehand, turn on haunches ('3 buttons' on the horses side)
etc. get the head down, and traveling from back to front.
I would stay away from any tie downs or standing martingales, same difference, just more tack,
and truly ineffective for a true headset, IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by Shelly on Sept 19, 2014 4:07:22 GMT
I personally like side pulls with a rawhide noseband. If you need to add some pressure they feel it but the second you release the pressure is off. My mom had a side pull with a soft leather noseband and I found our horses tented to "walk" through it more compared to the rawhide one. I've tried both on all the horses at home (well minus our draft... ) and they all listened great with the rawhide one. A horse I was training a couple years ago would run through any bit I put him in (kimberwhich's, slow twist, snaffles, even tomb thumbs) but worked perfectly in the side pull. I was sketchy about it at first but it's definitely earned it's keep in my tack locker |
|
Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
|
Post by Lipizzan on Sept 19, 2014 10:41:41 GMT
For my horses the only bit acceptable is simple snaffle. I like LG bitless bridle it gives you needed control and you can achive good signals threw it. It is even used in dressage.
|
|
redzip
Junior Member
Posts: 1,701
|
Post by redzip on Sept 19, 2014 12:52:30 GMT
For my horses the only bit acceptable is simple snaffle. I like LG bitless bridle it gives you needed control and you can achive good signals threw it. It is even used in dressage. Lip, I tried to start Zippy in a snaffle and he just HATED it. He stresses a lot anyhow, and all that loose movement just bothered him more  He seems to appreciate something solid in his mouth, vs broken. Shelly, I think I would get better results with a rawhide nose band too. Zippy was/still can be soooooo fussy, that I started with the simplest, and am working my way toward the 'ideal'. Still trying to find it |
|
|
|
Post by lorddaxter on Sept 19, 2014 13:01:37 GMT
Sometimes it takes a while to find out what they like, I bought a used sprenger KK and none of them like it lol! ...Dax is going great in his straight bar with port and curb kimblewick:)
|
|
Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
|
Post by Lipizzan on Sept 19, 2014 17:35:15 GMT
For my horses the only bit acceptable is simple snaffle. I like LG bitless bridle it gives you needed control and you can achive good signals threw it. It is even used in dressage. Lip, I tried to start Zippy in a snaffle and he just HATED it. He stresses a lot anyhow, and all that loose movement just bothered him more He seems to appreciate something solid in his mouth, vs broken. Shelly, I think I would get better results with a rawhide nose band too. Zippy was/still can be soooooo fussy, that I started with the simplest, and am working my way toward the 'ideal'. Still trying to find it Most of my horses don't like "solid" bits. I don't know why, I have a very very calm hand, I don't use a bit very much. Only one of my horses is being ridden in harder bit than a snaffle, and that is my oldest stallion, but I really ride him, he has a long story behind him and my dad don't allows me to ride him in any softer bit, he says for my "safety"? He just don't trust him, although he has come a long way. If he only let me more control on our horses, to train them as I think is right.... I like side-pulls also, never tried one, they are too expensive for my pocket... Maybe to try make one on my own? Wonder how would that work out. |
|
mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
|
Post by mistersmom on Sept 19, 2014 18:06:31 GMT
Lip - I bet if your brought some pictures of some side pulls from different angles, the gentleman that makes your halters might be able to make one for you.
|
|
Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
|
Post by Lipizzan on Sept 19, 2014 18:12:42 GMT
Can it be made from a rope that are made those rope halters?
|
|
mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
|
Post by mistersmom on Sept 19, 2014 18:36:00 GMT
I don't see why not. I wouldn't put the knots along the noseband like some halters have though.
|
|
|
|
Post by diamondgirl on Sept 20, 2014 16:50:43 GMT
I have made a couple rope halters. It is so much fun to learn to tie one, especially with cats. cat1 I found several you tube sites that give the instructions on how to tie a simple rope halter, then I made my own modifications. The good thing is, when you tie your own, you can fit it to the horse.
|
|
nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
|
Post by nhg on Sept 21, 2014 0:14:30 GMT
I like Red's bit. I agree with LD about that noseband being too low in the picture, it could break the horse's nose.
I don't think I missed this so I'm going to ask. Does he toss his head when you're giving him pressure on the bit or just off and on when the bit is in his mouth? The reason why I'm asking is because it's, sadly, not uncommon for trainers to 'soften' a horse's mouth and make them more responsive by sawing the bit back and forth in the horse's mouth which then creates sores there. Once that heals up it shouldn't be an issue, though. What kind of bit(s) have you been using that he dislikes?
|
|
|
|
Post by horselover4life on Sept 21, 2014 1:39:23 GMT
nh g... I can't find a rhythm to his head tossing.
Sometimes there is no pressure, just looped rein.
Then others I have very light contact just walking and following his head movement {forward, back, forward, back..}
Then others are if I pickup contact or just move the rein like neck reining, not hard or heavy handed... he reacts with the head flip and I have noticed a stiffening neck muscle.
If I touch his neck immediately and speak to him he relaxes but doesn't drop his head level or just above his wither, but will lower it from the over-elevated tossed height..
Bits... single joint snaffle, french link, snaffle 3 piece with a copper roller...
Tomorrow if the rain stops I want to try my mullen mouth {solid bar slight crown to it}.
My bits have been either d-ring or eggbutt mouth. He is very easy to turn.
The other day he flew backwards when I turned quickly while leading him in a halter and shank. No chain!!
I can only think he is anticipating the smack for no reason from us...as soon as he did it...he licked his lips and came right to me with his head hung and looking for a loving pat...
Do horses have flash-backs? 
I am beginning to think some of his other "quirks" are not spooks, but being reactive or over-reactive to a shadow or my leg motion...
If I put my outside leg on him on the straight side of my arena he reacts so suddenly you would swear he spooked...he is just evading/avoiding that touch I am more and more convinced. My son doesn't ride with leg cues as acute or as someone else put "3-positioned"....they are just there...he doesn't ask like I do with seat and stronger leg motion.
I have many issues happening at one time.
I spoke with my sons instructor today...she is coming this week to work with the horse and me and see if she can see where it is going haywire on us.
She agrees this horse knows a lot and she believes he has show ring experience and is got some really good training. His being so over-reactive....we are going to search together for a injured tongue better than what I was able to do myself. I did put my hand up the side of his mouth as far as I could...he complied and never fought nor tried to bite....just looked at me confused. I feel no sharp edges, wolf teeth are gone and no sharp points left behind.
More and more I think he was head beat and body beat....his scars {talk about white hairs} now healed tell a tale of their own...
He didn't deserve this for sure...he tries so hard.
Tomorrow, mullen mouth bit and my saddle {English}....and yes, I expect to eat dirt if he side-steps like he has in the past... he puts his head down and licks his lips repeatedly instantly. I know it is coming, I can feel it...he is so quick I can't react fast enough to catch up to him my balance.. then am bye-bye.
|
|
nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
|
Post by nhg on Sept 21, 2014 5:33:11 GMT
I have a feeling it's not the bit although lots of horses don't like snaffles as the sides end up pinching the sides of their mouths inwards, the nutcracker effect. That's why the only snaffle I'd use is a Myler.
Anyway, I've mentioned on the other place several times about the chiro we use and the amazing things he's done. He often helps spooky, overreactive horses. Now that I think about it, this might explain LD's Isis, too. Lots of horses are out at the poll. It usually happens when they're first being worked with and pull back when tied. A tied horse that's being abused could have this as well or any horse that's pulled back hard at some point. They end up living with basically horse migraines and become reactive to everything because they're so uncomfortable and they can't see properly so they spook easily. The way to check for this is to stand beside him at about his shoulder and hold your hand up to his eye level but start by his neck. Move your hand forward towards his eye about five inches away from his body. He should see your hand quite far back but if he doesn't see it until it's pretty far foreward or beside his eye and then seems surprised or even spooks a bit, this is what's going on with him. Horses in this situation can become hard to work with and unpredictable and are even hard to work with on the ground.
They can't see well and feel unsafe because they're always being surprised and the pain eventually goes all the way down their backs so they're always in pain and don't know why and react to anything because they don't know what to get away from to end the pain. He often has to adjust the poll to deal with back and pelvis issues in horses.
I might be totally off base but it's easy enough to try the experiment and see if he can see well. If this isn't what's going on and I still thought it was the bit I'd want the vet to make sure he doesn't have a wolf tooth under the gums or any tooth issues at all. I'd also be curious to see how he goes in a surcingle and it might be a good way to try out a new bit as well.
On the other hand, a friend has a horse that just does not do well with pressure on her mouth. She's a TWH so she needs it to gait properly as she doesn't have the greatest gait but she starts throwing her head. |
|
I find them more forgiving then a hack
