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Post by horselover4life on Sept 14, 2014 14:58:41 GMT
I'm stumped and need help. I rode this morning for a short time. When I unsaddled I had a complete sweat pattern under my saddle blanket, no dry spots, no rub marks. So... When I saddled up this morning I used a thin underpad {towel} then my thicker saddle pad. Saddle sat level, not popping up in the back nor hanging low in the front. I mounted and rode off. We were doing fine till "dummy" decided he was going to do his spook looky-look at nothing. I stayed on {Yay!!} but the entire saddle slid to the right as he jumped left. I fought to stay on and right the saddle on "dummies" back. Gained my balance and centered the saddle square where it belonged. {I think I pulled the left side pommel [large squared] even with his wither bone before I caught and righted myself and the saddle}
So, "dummy" has not yet gained his full top-line of muscle but his backbone is now fully covered with meat, his butt has rounded out, he has some shoulder muscling along with the now see-able tiny butt line muscle...we have been working some. I'm near positive he had no more air to release to loosen the cinch {yes, western saddle this morning}, and I tightened it again before I got on last thing. So, with the sweat pattern correct {I think} and the saddle fitting correctly...why did it shift and slide as it did?
I am not sure what size tree is in this saddle. It is not a "brand name", just a nice made leather western saddle. I know I need to find another western saddle for me to ride in than my sons. The stirrups even on the shortest hole are to long for my comfort and the saddle width pulls on my groin muscles and seat bones...well we don't align to good there either. Even sitting in it on the storage rack I feel like it is to wide for me...
So, when I was in a saddle shop recently they had a Circle Y Park & Trail corner tooled black saddle...I fell in love and it instantly made me feel comfortable sitting, not stretched to wide or reaching for stirrups...only problem was it was a 15", I think I need a 16". I was comfortable sitting in the store but once riding I don't know if it would be to tight... So, how do I check seat fit on a western? I can do English fine but stumped western and honestly not sure I trust the sales staff at the shop to not tell me something to make a sale, not in my best interest purchase. If that saddle is still there and it turns out it fits me...I'm bringing it home. It has semi-bars, so my understanding is that fits most builds better than full-bars...YES?? If I buy the saddle, I will then find the horse that fits that saddle as I am NOT hurting like this again knowingly...
SO...is the saddle wrong for the horse or was it me that upset us or possibly something else?
I'm sure it was a funny sight to see...my forearm has saddle burn and my legs are good as I was riding in breeches and paddock boots, my sons crash helmet and his western saddle..talk about a mish-mosh of disciplines..
And now we have another of my "books"...
HELP!! HELP!! HELP!!
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nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
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Post by nhg on Sept 14, 2014 15:09:38 GMT
I'd say that the cinch wasn't tight enough.
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Post by horselady on Sept 14, 2014 16:56:58 GMT
NOW you know we need photos of the saddle without the pad side view and back view and tighten up the girth.
that being asked for. lol i have a feeling the saddle is not fitting right. what thickness pad are you using and why the towel underneath? i have a feeling from your posting that the pad is way to thick so we need to see that also under the saddle,.
and yes if the girth was looser, and you tried to keep your foot in the stiruup., with your toes. than the weight of your body is going to cause that saddle to go to one side.( in this case you went right and he went left) after all that is where you were leaning,
if this saddle does not fit, and your legs are too long than you are not in balance. sooo get more holes in that leather orr use your english saddle until you find one that is good for you.
as for the towel being wet. well he was nervous and perhaps was sweating.???? .
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 14, 2014 19:35:17 GMT
The cinch could of been loose, definitely. Once astride I bet my weight in the saddle compressed his pad and made the saddle loose, makes perfect sense now when I think about it... I feared slipping under him and having a bronc in the house...and me on the ground in a heap.
The towel wet was because he was working and it was about 80 -85 degrees when we quit, nice breeze though so not brutal. I was trying to not get his saddle pad gross with sweat... He was sweating under his saddle for real. His neck was damp as was most of him. We didn't do a whole lot of more than trot and halt, turns on the haunches and forehand and halt...back and stand square. But he was working.
I still am having difficulty with him and his mouth...he was abused obviously and is easily frightened that if he does bad he is going to take a beating. He was so fearful after we slid sideways....I could feel his muscles quiver and his eyes were bugging out waiting for the hitting to begin.
He rides in a 3-piece eggbutt french-link and never stops chewing or playing with it..makes me crazy. I am thinking of going with a mullen mouth {straight bar} bit, No Shanks or curb chain...I can only imagine his fright to feel a strap on his jaw. I barely touch his mouth for contact and have gone to western neck-reining most of the time.. I hardly take a feel ever like in English, he is so defensive and afraid. His saddle pad is thick like this one...www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/1030/1-620
He still carries his head high {does this whether saddled or not} but has stated to relax then gets tense and reverts back to sky high. I dislike the thought of a tie-down and don't really know how to use a western one but to adjust it pretty much the same as a English one. I want him to carry his head where he wants...if high, fine...but when he gets fearful he throws it and tosses it to evade the hit{not coming from us} he anticipates. I just don't want a bloody nose as he learns to trust again.
He actually wanted rubbing/scratching on his head and looking for scratches after the ride from me.. a first. I think what we deal with is so much his distrust due to mishandling...it will be some time before I trust him with my kid on a trail ride.
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nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
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Post by nhg on Sept 14, 2014 20:34:44 GMT
Poor guy.
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mingiz
Junior Member
Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 3,320
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Post by mingiz on Sept 14, 2014 21:34:36 GMT
I would say your saddle was loose. Reno will hold his breath and I retighten his cinch at least 3 times before I mount up. Then after I ride for awhile I tighten it up again. I can do that from atop. As far as the circle Y. I had a black park and trail and they are great saddles. I can ride in a 16 but prefer to ride in a 17. I like a little play room. I use a 1/2 in thick wool pad and a saddle blanket over that. Never had an issue. Have you thought about trying a hackamore on him. I had one that hated a bit. He would react the same, I tired a hack on him and he was heavenly after that. Was one of the best trail horses I ever owned.
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 14, 2014 23:33:45 GMT
Ming I have a hack but really don't know how to put it on and adjust it properly. I bought it "new" in a box of other things {bits} I wanted...never used.
I don't know what kind it is but it has long shanks, a braided nose, and a headstall {nylon} with adjustment I think only on one side by a buckle with holes. It does have reins, again nylon and 2 separate ones.
I think it may be very severe with what I have read about longer the shank nastier the "bite" to the horse....
I have some misgivings about using a hack. I've really only ever ridden with bits, and if this horse ever gets to the show ring, bit it is. I have done some riding with a "Dr. Cook's Bitless" but it is OK.... I miss not having that fine point communication conveyed with the bit... I guess I don't trust them is the right words....
So, you think I should really give a hack a chance? My heart in my throat I will if you really think it could make a big difference. Just tell me how to adjust the thing on his face so I not hurt him yet have control. It will be me trying it out so I know to bail and fast if I need to. I've seen them flip over using a hack and pulling back to fast and to hard...my fear with my son. He can be abrupt with his hands yet....
So...HELP
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Post by horselady on Sept 14, 2014 23:34:50 GMT
poor guy, have you tried riding him with halter and two lead, just to see how he does, with out a bit entirely ? and because of all the heat and humidity. why not try a thin navaho blanket instead of a pad. you are doing it right. give him time and just keep changing those bits until he finds one that he likes.
We posted at the same time. lol i was going to say if your son shows he will need a bit. and i am sure if western showing he will need a western type bit. i have seen very low port and short shank grazing bit, i think i might have one. if i do i will send it down to you. as for the hackamore the side going on the face do not touch to bone . or cheek bone that you see. and the nose band goes just over the nostril at the top of the nose. not to cut off his wind but to sit ON the nose. it takes a bit of time for the horse to get used to it as it puts pressure on the face and top of the head as opposed to in the mouth and top of head. of course light hands and no jerking quick and hard. just a twitch of the fingers and hand is all that is needed.
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 14, 2014 23:45:41 GMT
I was concerned that without his back developed with muscle I could hurt his spine with the heavier saddle pressing on his spine edges {what is that name called?}, why I had such a heavy pad on him.
I guess I can try the halter and shanks....I am in a enclosed fully fenced area...what is the worst he does...run and dump me...eaten dirt and face-planted before...will again.
I'll try....your suggestion and Mings if she thinks the hack I have is not to severe...he is a good boy, he tries hard to do as you want and he is sweet.
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mingiz
Junior Member
Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 3,320
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Post by mingiz on Sept 15, 2014 0:25:01 GMT
That sounds like the hack I used. As HL stated is how you use it. It should have a curb chain under the chin. Not tight but not loose about 2 to 3 fingers worth. Or even try a halter and leads. If he responds to that then try the hack. I would also if you have to use a bit for shows use a low port short shank bit. Can you call the people you got him from to see what they used on him. I always ask what type of tack they used when I bought horses.
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 15, 2014 2:35:38 GMT
No, Ming...no contact possible. He was a rescue and came from a bad place. The lady I got him from had started his rehab but it was far from done when he got here. His scars tell a tale of their own...they are not "normal" type of scars on a horses hide. His mouth when I got him still had scabs on the corners, and now has scarring if you look closely but is healed. Had the vet check his mouth and tongue for damages..none visible. I don't really want to know what he endured at the hands of creeps honestly. If the known scars I saw are any indication... he has been through hell and back. I am on my own figuring out what to use...those that had him were cruel I am told and it was left at that.
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mingiz
Junior Member
Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 3,320
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Post by mingiz on Sept 15, 2014 13:52:18 GMT
Maybe that's why he does what he does. His mouth was treated badly. The hack may work but sounds like your just going to have to get his confidence back by being light handed. I would still try the low port on him and start him out slowly with walk, whoa. Sounds like he had a set of rough hands on him and he threw his head up to try and get away from the pressure or in his case pain. It may take some time but with the right hands he may come around. Maybe try just getting him to flex his poll then release it or even side to side flexing. You need to get him to relax and realize that it isn't hurting him. Start it on the ground first. Yes he needs to get his trust back and your the one that can do it with time... gng
I had a paint mare .After I got her home went to bridle her and noticed her tongue had a major scar. I called the lady I got her from and she forgot to mention it. But she sent her to a trainer and he used a harsh bit on her and just about cut her tongue in half. But the mare did fine after she healed up and had a good person retrain her.. I trail rode her for 4 yrs and then ended up selling her back to the lady. Which was our agreement if I decided to sell her. Only reason I did was I can't ride the trot and went gaited. I miss that horse. She was a nice bomb proof ride.
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 15, 2014 15:23:49 GMT
Ming, I'm going to try the low port bit and my mullen mouth on him. I have a very low port grazing bit...is that gentle enough? And loose reins?
If I have to do the hack...where do you adjust the noseband piece to? On a English bridle it is supposed to be just under the cheek bones but a hack? I have no idea or clue.
Do you "steer" the same way of gentle pressure pulling back or do I need to open my hands up to instead of over the wither to over say the shoulder blades and pull more outward and back for cues? I use my pinkies for riding guidance and soft is the word... If I neck rein him in a hack do I need to do anything differently than with a bit in his mouth?... I am truly lost.....
My neighbor has a tie down she doesn't use {spare} she is going to let me borrow to see if it helps him to realize he can carry his head high but not throw it and he won't get his mouth hurt..
I am so grasping at straws and ideas here on many levels....
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Post by lorddaxter on Sept 15, 2014 15:55:42 GMT
Personally I'd leave the noseband off, sometimes on a really sensitive horse just that little bit of pressure even from a cavesson can be enough to distract them:)
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Post by lorddaxter on Sept 15, 2014 15:57:23 GMT
Oooh I wouldn't use a tie down on a horse like this, I think it will have a bad effect, I know Isis freaked out bad when a trainer used one on him, from reading about this horse he reminds me of him, sorry, lol!
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Post by lorddaxter on Sept 15, 2014 16:00:02 GMT
Can't you try an English martingale, to fit you take the 2 pieces that attach to the reins and put them straight up under his neck till they touch his throat adjust then hoop each onto each rein.
Are you going to try a hackamore?
I like the german hackamores better, never liked those sheepskin type ones, you do need to have a sensitive hand though and learn to use your legs more:)
Oh and don't use a noseband with a hackamore:)
I bet you'll find you will hardly have to use your hands, they are very sensitive bits, I know people use martingales with hackamores but I never had to and I don't personally think its a good idea as it's adding to the pressure on the nose, I cringe when I see show jumpers doing this, poor horse can hardly breathe!
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 15, 2014 16:27:37 GMT
No, the noseband would be with my English mullen mouth bit. I had a martingale, a standing one, on him and he was fine. Adjusted so it not interfere with his high head carriage but it has a "STOP" so I not get a bloody nose when he really head tosses. I would not ever use a running or German style as they do put pressure through the reins on his mouth if he head-tosses. Standing one only uses the noseband as the resistance point not his mouth ultimately.
He is so difficult because he can be going along fine and quiet and the next second throwing his head sky high and I have done nothing to him or changed anything. Not moved at all, anything.
I've ridden him in a western headstall, no noseband...same stuff he does.
He has to learn to trust us and he is slowly, but I could throttle whoever had him and did this to him. If I can work past this head stuff...he is a beautiful mover. When he relaxes for that few seconds and puts his head down, he should be in a show ring, no kidding. He is that nice a mover. Consistent though... ... not yet and no idea if he ever will get that way. I have yet to be able to really "ride" him as I want because of his mouth and head issue. I am pretty certain though this horse has some incredible training and knowledge. The other day he did a sweet roll-back, so nice and gentle. A wonderful square stop, 3 second hold and 3 step back and square stop and hold....it actually caught me unprepared. My neighbor was watching and saw it, made mention of it before I even realized what he had done truthfully. To work with him on the ground he is beginning to shadow my shoulder movement, walk off he is there, halt he is there, me jog off he is there and if I stop suddenly he is right there...showmanship training think it is and possible some reining...I need someone though with more skill at it than I have to see what he knows. {I have no plans for a show horse, he is a pet and a trail horse for us, that is it...and he is already greatly loved in our family}
However, I just want him to be comfortable when ridden. And I need him to be a safe mount on a trail, whomever is astride. Right now he is neither....hence my HELP ME to figure this out and suggestions greatly appreciated.
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mingiz
Junior Member
Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 3,320
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Post by mingiz on Sept 16, 2014 16:58:42 GMT
HL4L I rode the same way in a hack as I did with a bit. As far as applying pressure do it lightly to start with. The nose piece should hang below the cheeks. Here is a pic of the hack you have I think. Which is called a mechanical Hackamore. If used un-properly it can be as severe as any other bit. It works off of pressure on the nose. The weight of it may get him to drop his head down too. thehorsepedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/hackamore.jpg
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 16, 2014 17:20:44 GMT
That's it Ming...that is the hack.
So, the strap behind the jaw....2-3 fingers fit like you would with a English curb chain???
Anything else???
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Post by Shelly on Sept 16, 2014 19:46:07 GMT
I always rode the same with a hack then a bit I just found I tried to not keep contact on it what so ever while riding (other then giving cues). I don't know if it's true or not but someone told me if you hold your contact for a long period of time it can impact the horses airways. Just something I was always told so I have little to no contact with them and make sure I'm quick with my release (which naturally you always should be... but I don't think that would be an issue for you). neck reining I did the same way too.
I have seen some people sweat by tie downs, my only concern is if he tries to be reactive/spook, try and toss his head up, some horses panic and rear (which is never fun) but considering he is fine in a martingale then the tie down would be the same. I usually like to use a breast plate when using a tie down so I can pass the long piece between the horses chest and breast plate. I'm always paranoid seeing people ride with just a tie down because I'm always worried if it can get stuck in the horses front legs. Unlike a martingale, a tie down doesn't usually have the leather piece that attaches itself around the horses neck (well I haven't seen any).
It sounds as if the cinch was loose, when I use bulky pads I usually do a second tighten once I'm on my horse. But a breast collar probably wouldn't hurt to have either. It would be a band aid solution until you figure out the big issue. It's really hard to say anything else without seeing the saddle/pad on the horse.
Best of luck!
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