nhg
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Post by nhg on Sept 17, 2014 22:22:38 GMT
Hug's post about her lessons reminded me of this situation. This was several years ago but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I was discussing a situation with a coach where we used to board. If a horse is doing something I don't want it to do to avoid doing what I want it to do I'll then make it keep doing what it's doing. Then I'm in control because it's now doing what I want and because I'm forcing it to do the action it's a form of punishment because when it wants to stop I make it continue.
Here's two examples. 1) I'm trying to load a horse in a trailer and it keeps backing up. I then force the horse to keep backing up way past where it wants to stop and possibly into something like a fence or wall so it becomes a punishment. 2) I want a horse to lope but it just keeps trotting faster and faster instead of making the transition. First, I slow it down and ask again but if this doesn't work after several tries I'll then make the horse trot fast until it's past the point where it wants to keep doing it and wants to slow down. Then I start over and ask again.
The coach completely disagreed with my thoughts and insisted that I was actually giving the horse what it wants and so how was that a punishment? She gave the example of asking a child to clean their room and them not doing it so I do it myself to punish them. I think this was not an accurate comparison.
Another example. I used to have a mare that would only go so far out on a trail ride and then turn around. I'd try to turn her back around and she'd turn all the way so she faced home again. So I made her spin around several times and then asked her to turn properly. It worked after doing it several times. She tried it a few more times on other rides but gave up pretty fast. |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Sept 18, 2014 0:26:18 GMT
Hi, NHG! Now on to the topic at hand  First thing that is derailing the discussion is the concept of punishment. Horses don't understand punishment, if they don't do what we want them to do, they don't live it like they made a mistake. And from personal experience and all that I've read, punishment won't work in the long term. Punishment may intimidate a horse to do what you want, but it is not a lesson that will stick, one way or another they're going to get you back for it. Many people confuse the term discipline with punishment, those two terms are not synonymous; think of Jesus' disciples, they went out to lead people, to show them the way, not to punish them. The paradigm is to correct the unwanted behavior and demonstrate the wanted behavior. Just like you said in another thread, make the wrong thing hard (many tight circles) and the right thing easy (release and walk straight) and rinse repeat as often as necessary. I guess from my lesson it would be; walk across the tarp or walk back and forth. I don't know how many times you and the horse walk back and forth, myself I'd walk a circle every time the horse refused to walk across the tarp until it walked across or even just stepped on the tarp and then I'd release and do something fun and easy. But Andrea said that walking away was rewarding the horse for not doing what I asked. But I don't get that walking back and forth rather than crossing the tarp as any different, the horse is still not crossing the tarp. Yet she said that it wasn't about the tarp, it was about the relationship. Yet if you must face the tarp, then it is about the tarp. I think it makes a difference if the horse is afraid versus being resistant. I'm not so sure I always know the difference, I mean, isn't all of the refusal out of fear of the unknown? I think the difference is if the horse is confident and you can apply more pressure, as in keep asking not necessarily physical pressure versus if the horse is not confident in which case applying too much pressure shuts the horse's mind down. |
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nhg
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Post by nhg on Sept 18, 2014 3:35:58 GMT
Your post just reminded me, I wasn't meaning about how you're getting her to cross a tarp. I was thinking more about how your coach is perceiving things and how you're perceiving things. Similar to our discussion on the Linda P video where she was getting the owner to make the horse stop often while lunging it and getting a totally different perspective of why the horse seemed happier.
Maybe I shouldn't have used the word punishment. What I'm trying to do in those situations is to get the horse to not want to do the behaviour I don't want. The important part of the situations I mentioned is that I'm not working with a horse that is afraid, I'm working with a horse that's trying to avoid doing what I want. I should have clarified that. Like I mentioned on the other thread, if I had a horse that I wanted to do anything like cross a tarp I'd try it on the ground first to make sure the horse isn't actually afraid to do it. If the horse was afraid of the tarp I'm not going to try to get it to cross it from it's back, I'm going to work with it on the ground first. Why put myself in a potentially dangerous situation? If the horse should be fine walking on the tarp I'd try it from it's back but if it only went close to the tarp I'd ease off on pressure as a reward and then try it again. If it put one foot on I'd reward that by giving it a break. Baby steps. |
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Post by shadowlark on Sept 18, 2014 9:30:06 GMT
I think this is the key: "make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy"
I've done this on a few occasions. When I got my last mare back from lease, the leasee had let her walk away on her while mounting. Well, this is a BIG no to me. You stand until I ask you to move. So, every time she started to move, I'd jump down and make her trot little circles around me for a few minutes. You want to move? I will MAKE you move. It only took a few times for her to catch on that it was easier to just stand still.
Same with Lucy. I didn't get out much in the winter because of bad knees and other things. So come spring when they finally got turned out on pasture, she was a right #($@* to catch. She would trot away as soon as I got close. Then stop a short while away. Again, you want to move? I will MAKE you move until it's not fun. So I started chasing after her. Every she'd go to stop, I made her keep going. She'd go to stop, I'd make her go. Only for 5 minutes or so, but it was enough. If I asked her to "Whoa" and "Stand" and she so much as took a step, off I made her go again. Didn't take long for her to realize it was A LOT easier to just let me catch her.
It's not punishment, it's psychology! Though I do think there is a line between correcting and confusing, and that also depends on the horse. Like, with Lucy, I don't think she'd connect making her trot fast with her not cantering. In that case, what would work for her (I think, having not actually gotten the courage to canter her yet!), would be if she didn't canter, bring to a walk, ask again, repeat until she finally canters. Immediately reward and let her walk. Try again, canter a bit longer, let her walk. But what works for her won't work for every horse.
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Post by lorddaxter on Sept 18, 2014 12:30:25 GMT
I'm the whatever works type lol!
I know I've been way softer the last few years with mine and have started stepping up more and being firmer and it's getting results.
Ok I have to say I don't get the horses don't understand punishment, why do people say that?
Ira bit me bad on the back when he was young, I turned round and punched him hard on the nose, he never bit me again, that was punishment and worked?
Isis hates getting his clenches pinched by farrier, last time he was real bad and she whacked him hard with the file, then lunged him round and round till he settled, the time after so 5 weeks later he went to act up again, she just lifted the file and he stood like a lamb, surely this is punishment and again it worked?
I'm not criticizing I just don't get it:)....or was that all discipline?
Anyway, I'm quite a stubborn rider, if I know my horse doesn't like something then I'll ask them to do it more, I do go slow though, harlequin would sometimes stop dead and refuse to go any farther on the trail, I'd just turn him round and back him the way I wanted to go until he gave up and he always did, Dax yesterday stopped dead and refused to move, after a couple head turns as if I was going to turn him round and asking him to move he again gave up, I usually get what I want, I had a couple real bad rides on Isis recently where he put the brakes on and refused to move forward, I won, took a while and with him I have to be real careful incase he rears but I won't be beat!.....there's always a way round things, it's just a matter of finding it safely!
I think NHG both of you were right, if that makes sense?!
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nhg
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Post by nhg on Sept 18, 2014 13:36:05 GMT
It's true. Whatever works, works. The only line to not cross is being abusive. And whether it's punishment or discipline the horses doesn't know the difference between the two words. Shadowlark, I've also dealt with a horse that was hard to catch by making her run. It took a long time the first day but it eventually worked. That's what my theory is. You want to do something naughty? Then I'll make you do it until you don't want to anymore and you're happy to do what I want.
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Post by diamondgirl on Sept 18, 2014 20:42:56 GMT
nhg, I totally agree with you. When I got Diamond, she refused to go into the round pen. She would shoot backward faster than I could keep up with her, and there was no way I could have won a tug of war. So I would lead her to the round pen, and when she would back away, I continued to ask her to back all the way around the outside. The first few times she sailed backward, she was going to fast, and she did back into a few things, but after awhile her backward movement was more under control. It didn't take long for her to decide that going into the round pen was much easier than all that backing. Especially, when sometimes all we did in the round pen, was just stand, or walk slowly, and then call it a day.
I often don't know what the right thing to do in a situation really is. When we are going by something that might be scary, I try to just get her to move off leg pressure, alone. She has to think, about what I am asking, and I have to think harder too. I find she is less scared, if I keep her busy thinking. As far as the tarp goes? When I was trying to ride Diamond across the teeter-totter, she was willing until she felt it move. After that she wanted nothing to do with it. I rode her back and forth, at a trot, across the ends, and back and forth down the sides, and didn't ask her to step on it. After awhile I asked her to put one foot on the end, and we just stood there. Then went back and forth awhile. It didn't take long before she was walking across. I think it is sort of the same thing as  was describing. Sort of telling your horse, I don't want you to step on it, I want you to pay attention to me. I want you to trust me. Once you trust me we will step on it together, and it will be ok.
Diamond still doesn't like the teeter-totter when it drops, but if I worked with her more I don't think she would have a problem. Her lack of trust in me is my fault. I let to many things take my time, and don't spend nearly enough time with my horses.
I wish I knew so much more. I tried taking a few lessons, but they were more of a how to be a cowboy and sit proper lessons. How to MAKE my horse do what I was asking. No, that is not what I want to learn. I want to learn how to speak to my horse, in a way she understands. I want to learn how to be consistent. I want to be able to understand what she is telling me. We have built a lot of trust over the years, but I want so much more. |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Sept 19, 2014 0:57:30 GMT
I think we have to defend ourselves and some behavior is just so bad that a wack is punishment but not abuse. You can't let a horse that knows better to move in such a way that someone could get hurt. That's a lot different than a scared horse who isn't thinking and is acting like a nut job.
I figure that being persistent is one thing I know how to do and it seems to work. And yeah, from the ground is the place to try things, better than ending up there.
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Post by horselady on Sept 19, 2014 1:15:19 GMT
As I have stated before, there is no right way or wrong way, only the way that will work for you and that horse at that moment.
some horses do not mind looking at the scarey object , and than decide that it is not going to eat them. other horses turn their head and walk sideways away from it. The book says to get the horse to look at the object. . well that horse is not going to look at that huge monster rock if he does not want to and i am not strong enough to make him. so if he wants to look away and walk sideways away from it i will allow that but circle instead and come back to it and make another circle and i bet on the 4 circle he will never look at that rock and proceed like nothing has happened.
mean while i am out of breath and dizzy from walking circles.
every circumstance is different and everyone has a different way of approaching a situation. the main thought is to get the result that is needed without anyone getting hurt or the horse beat.
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Post by Shelly on Sept 19, 2014 3:45:27 GMT
I find everything is situational. When a horse acts "spoiled" I am tempted to make them work till they "give in" and decide to pay attention and be "with" me (like the making them back up situation). I have a zero tolerance when it comes to horses walking over me and I won't hesitate to put them in their place right away. I am the boss lol If they don't want to walk forward, that's fine.. we will just sit here and circle until you are ready to do what I wanted.
On that note, if a horse is fearful I take a completely different demeanour. I stay calm, talk to them and have try to let them see that "this isn't that scary".
With Sheldon, I feel as if we have a fairly good bond so if he is fearful or worried about something I take my time to listen to what he's saying (and honestly it rarely happens.. I can get that horse to walk over tarps and random things no problem) -- tomorrow will be a big test for us.
I find every situation is different. Every horse has a background and I feel like your training should reflect that. If your dealing with a horse with a history of abuse well it should be different compared to the horse who was always allowed to do what they want. Horses work on a fight or flight instinct so use that to your advantage with your training.
One thing I've noticed lately though is I get much better results with Sheldon lately when I take my time and calmly teach him thing then just getting upset when ever he does something wrong. Exception if he does something to put me in danger (Kick/buck/rear/bite).
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Post by lorddaxter on Sept 19, 2014 12:01:04 GMT
Sometimes it's hard to know if a horse is truly fearful, Isis acts fearful but the trainer who finally got him broke to ride says he is not fearful and just plays on things, he is reactive though even last night I went to check on them and he didn't see me coming, he had his back to me and his head stuck I to the base of some bushes, once he realised something was there he took off like a bullet whereas Dax who was in the same bush just jumped a little, god,that horse frustrates me:(
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nhg
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Post by nhg on Sept 19, 2014 14:27:02 GMT
LD, does Isis have more whorls in his hair on his body than usual? Or additional ones on his face or double or offset ones? I'm curious if Linda Tellington-Jones' theory applies to him.
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mistersmom
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Post by mistersmom on Sept 19, 2014 14:30:24 GMT
I had forgotten about that old wives tale (did know she was using it as her theory). I'm going to check Mister today. I'm sure I have before but forgot what I found. LOL.
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nhg
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Post by nhg on Sept 19, 2014 14:43:01 GMT
There is some science behind it MM. Apparently the foal develops it's hair pattern at the same time that it develops it's nerves in the mare's tummy. So the idea is that a horse with more than usual whorls is more flighty. She says that people who are born with mental disabilities- I can't remember which one(s)- often have additional whorls in their hair as well. I heard that one big name trainer will only take on a colt with extra or off centre whorls if it's really exceptional in other areas. Since I learned all this years ago I check lots of horses but I find that almost every one has a single whorl right in the middle between the eyes like it's supposed to. I rarely see one where it's not in that spot.
There is an old wive's tale that a horse with a moustache is a good, solid babysitter type. I've only seen a few and they were good horses but that could just be a coincidence. |
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Post by lorddaxter on Sept 19, 2014 15:32:19 GMT
Don't know, I'll have to look!
Ira though has a moustache and I know he will be a good solid babysitter type, on the trail he can get tangled in anything and he will just plow through or wait till I untangle us, once I had a sapling stuck between my leg and the saddle and he didn't bat an eyelid, he's like a big dog:)
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was describing. Sort of telling your horse, I don't want you to step on it, I want you to pay attention to me. I want you to trust me. Once you trust me we will step on it together, and it will be ok. 
