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Post by Shelly on Aug 22, 2014 16:30:21 GMT
Hi everyone,
My mom's mare hates to lead! like... a lot. Sadly with my little horse being in training right now riding my mom's horse is not my priority.
So my mom's horse is named Genie, she is a 10 year old Dun QH mare. This will be our second summer with her. Genie is a bit hard headed... ok she's very hard headed. She had no problems being worked independently. We take her to the outdoor a lot and she works well on her own. However, my mom is still a beginner rider though she has some decent skills. She knows how to stop and steer but when it comes to riding difficult horses she gets very nervous.
We need Genie to be able to lead trail rides, because when my mom wants to go on trails she takes beginners with her on her other horse Irish, who is very good at just following in auto-pilot for a whole ride which is nice. Unfortunately when you attempt to lead with Genie, she spooks, backs up very fast and often into horses who are behind her. When you discipline her she will often kick out or do little "rear" hops.
The other day when we rode, I was on my baby Sheldon, and I put a more experienced rider on Genie to go for a trail. I led the trail with Sheldon going away from the barn and we figured she would fight less leading towards home. Well we thought wrong. Because she does her crazy back up, I was keeping about two vehicle lengths between us. She still managed to close the gap in no time! Sheldon eventually started feeding off of her bad energy and started to act up himself.
We eventually deemed it too dangerous to have Genie lead and we had Sheldon to lead back to the outdoor. After riding around in there for a bit, we both finished on a good note and went back to the barn. We have done a lot of ground work with Genie, and she will go down the trails being led on the ground no problem but never leading out herself. We work her alone in the outdoor and I'm tempted to just take her for a trail alone but I feel like that could potentially be dangerous incase I fall off (or who ever attempts to take her alone).
Tips and suggestions are welcome. Genie has learned that being naughty works for her, and it needs to be corrected.
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mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749 
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Post by mistersmom on Aug 22, 2014 16:43:36 GMT
Sounds to me like a trainer or more experienced person needs to get involved here. That or you could cut your losses and sell Genie for a safer horse for your mom. I'm afraid Genie is going to dump your mom and she may not get over that (it is harder for us older folks, especially the beginners, to regain confidence after being dumped). Or she could possibly get hurt.
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Post by diamondgirl on Aug 22, 2014 20:40:58 GMT
Am I understanding that an experienced rider felt Genie was to dangerous to ride back in the lead, but your Mom, an inexperienced rider wants to do so? Mistersmom is right. You need to get a trainer involved, not only for Genie, but for your Mom too. I know it is expensive, but much less costly than a trip to the ER, or worse. |
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mingiz
Junior Member
Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 3,320
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Post by mingiz on Aug 22, 2014 20:44:11 GMT
Sounds like she has learned that if she backs up, she gets her wishes. Me, and I have dealt with this before. As soon as she starts to back up or balk spin her into a circle a few times then ask her to go forward again. Not nicely either. Make her go ahead. A 10 yr old shouldn't be that way. She needs a more experienced rider that will be the Boss Mare of the 2. Another thing you can do is make her ride side by side on the trail if u can. Then have the other rider back off gradually, When you feel her getting ready to balk. Send here on with meaning...  |
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Aug 23, 2014 7:04:25 GMT
How do you discipline her?
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Post by horselady on Aug 23, 2014 11:25:50 GMT
Lippi, if circles and turns do not work than a good crop on the hind end might work.
seems this mare has everyones number. she wants to go back home and is being pushy,. and demanding by backing up.
keep off the mouth. perhaps she is being asked to back with the bit and reins, even in a western curb or snaffle they feel the slightest tug to back and they do.
you are expecting her to misbehave and just a small pull from rider nerves will encourage the horse to pay attention to what is going on in her mouth
keep reins loose. and use one rein only to circle and relax the opposite towards her bit and turn turn turn.
kicking with outside leg. and stand. let her breath. and relax, than as to go forward.
sometimes it is best to do this alone and two horses are going to reach to each other.
if that does not work than us a bat. the noise is worse than the sting.
good luck hope a trainer can help even if for 10 lessons.
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Aug 23, 2014 12:07:21 GMT
When you discipline her she will often kick out or do little "rear" hops. This is what I was asking about, I am interested to know how is she discipline her so that horse is reacting by rearing or kicking. |
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on Aug 23, 2014 12:31:07 GMT
okay, at risk of getting a face full of tomatoes, please remember my heart is in the right place, horse behavior/point of view is one of my most favorite things to think about and that precise meaning of words is really important when speaking of horse behavior/point of view.
I love you and treasure this forum and we are probably saying the same thing but from a different viewpoint which could make all of the difference ... so here goes.
First, horses don't understand discipline which implies punishment. That's because from their point of view they are protecting their very life. They understand correction and they take it better from someone they know beyond a shadow of a doubt would never put them in danger. So please realize that punishment or discipline (actually discipline means to "lead someone in the right direction aka disciples" but most people use it in place of "punishment") won't be as effective in the long term and on the most consistent basis possible.
What you want to do is "correct" the behavior. Which is where you're circling and such comes from. The horse's behavior triggers a correction which is to make it more work for the horse to back/balk, in this case. That is one technique to correct the horse. Another technique or lesson (a better analogy than discipline) would be to have this horse go out with at least one other horse and then trade places being first. So not only do you have the horse experiencing being in different places in line, they also must listen to cues and respond appropriately, so that there are multiple levels of lesson and more opportunities to correct improper behavior. So you can see, more horses in this conga line, the more opportunity for learning and being correctly responsive. This horse is responsive enough, she's sensitive to cues alright, just not the ones she out to be paying attention to.
A crop is an unpleasant response for sure, but I don't think it'll be effective in this case.
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Aug 23, 2014 12:43:11 GMT
I agree with hugs, we have the same opinion.
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Post by diamondgirl on Aug 23, 2014 13:30:11 GMT
Shelly have the old tried and true method? Work, work, work if she is behind then lead at a relaxed pace. I know work at the barn and rest while away, works for horses that don't want to leave the barn. The only other thought I had is, if she wants to back up so bad, do you have a good enough trail you could just put her in the lead and back her down the trail? Maybe if she had to back for awhile she wouldn't think it was a good way to get out of work.
I have found that  is right. A smack to the fanny only works for me if my horse is being lazy, and my seat and feet aren't getting her to pick up the pace. Even then it is just a tap to tell her I was giving her a request, and I would appreciate if she would pay attention. If Genie is already being reactive, a sharp smack might make her react bigger. I have always been told, to counter a reactive situation with lots of calm work, work, work, like changing direction, moving the shoulders or the hip, and things like that, than go back to what you want them to do as if nothing happened.
I just re-read post and I guess she said exactly what I tried to say first. I guess I just had to say it my way. Sorry.  |
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Post by horselady on Aug 23, 2014 20:20:55 GMT
I do agree that the best way is to out think them and let them think it was their idea. sometimes their idea is not to work and not to pay attention and do what they want,. yes. there is some training issues and trust issues that need to be addressed. what is the human doing? talking non stop , "yelling. go . go come on, let us go. walk. walk. ok i have had enough of this crap ####." that is what is done. right?? if you watch trainers and clinicians. they do not speak. they talk in an even tone, they do not raise their voice when they are talking. in fact they talk to the audience not the horse and the horse knows the difference. SO back to basics. one word commands. walk. stand. whoa. trot. canter. over. back. IN FACT I WOULD NOT EVEN ASK FOR BACK ON THIS PARTICULAER HORSE. i have a feeling that the humans are asking this horse to relax it's mouth and might be pulling back or side to side . in see saw motion. until we hear from the op we will just have to keep making suggestions and hopefully a combination of them will work. what i mean a bat. not a base ball bat. but a western one with two flaps of leather that sounds like a smack. never beat. never yell. and if a person is getting impatient. think of the 3 second rule. back off. and breath for 3 seconds and start over from the beginning.  |
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on Aug 23, 2014 22:39:07 GMT
Shelly have the old tried and true method? Work, work, work if she is behind then lead at a relaxed pace. I know work at the barn and rest while away, works for horses that don't want to leave the barn. The only other thought I had is, if she wants to back up so bad, do you have a good enough trail you could just put her in the lead and back her down the trail? Maybe if she had to back for awhile she wouldn't think it was a good way to get out of work.
I have found that is right. A smack to the fanny only works for me if my horse is being lazy, and my seat and feet aren't getting her to pick up the pace. Even then it is just a tap to tell her I was giving her a request, and I would appreciate if she would pay attention. If Genie is already being reactive, a sharp smack might make her react bigger. I have always been told, to counter a reactive situation with lots of calm work, work, work, like changing direction, moving the shoulders or the hip, and things like that, than go back to what you want them to do as if nothing happened.
I just re-read post and I guess she said exactly what I tried to say first. I guess I just had to say it my way. Sorry. First, no need to apologize for pete's sake. I feel pretty good you and Lipizzan agree with me, thanks  But you know, we all think in such different ways that you really didn't restate anything. I really like what you were saying about backing down the trail. It reminds me of what I've heard a million times, don't fight with the horse, if they want to <whatever>, let them and then do that over and over and over again (except bucking maybe??) until they realize that they're idea ain't so great and your idea then becomes theirs because its easier. No muss, no fuss in that way. You aren't trying to "get them to do something", you're going with their idea and then showing them how their idea is no picnic. |
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Post by diamondgirl on Aug 24, 2014 4:06:09 GMT
When I first got Diamond we had a big problem with disrespect. When I would try to get her into the round pen she would shoot backwards. She went back so fast, I couldn't keep up with her, and she would pull the rope right out of my hands, and get away. Finally a very wise old cowboy told me, as soon as she showed the first sign of backing up, I was to make her back up as fast as I could. I thought, " He sure was pretty darn dumb, because I can't run as fast as she can back up", but I was wrong. I couldn't run very fast with my feet planted, but I could move much faster once I got my feet freed up. You know, it turned out, Diamond, really didn't like to back up as much as she thought she did , and not nearly as fast, when I was chasing after her. It didn't take any time at all before she decided it was much easier to just follow me into the round pen. It also didn't take her long to realize that, if she would walk when I asked her to, and trot, lope, and change direction, in the round pen, we would be done in short order, and we could get on with the good stuff, like brushing, and braiding, and just spending good times together. You just gotta love wise old cowboys.  And beautiful spoiled paint horses. smileys-hearts-532620 |
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Post by Shelly on Aug 25, 2014 17:31:45 GMT
Sorry for the late reply!! I ended up going to camp all weekend and the hubby was after me to ditch the cell phone (boo!)
And I couldn't agree more with everyone. I mentioned to my mom sending her to a trainer but sadly due to funds she can't at this time. She considered selling but she feels very attached to this horse now and feels like she doesn't want to "give" up on her.
To discipline her I've tried saying "hey" when she's acting up, using more leg, I generally drop the crop with her because it in fact makes things worse (as mentioned). We have also tried being more passive, letting her assess the situation, giving her time to breath and thats usually when she does her speedy back up.
In the spring I did get her to lead out (that's the last time I've ridden her on a trail) and she lead the whole time. She stopped every once in a while but respectfully continues. One spot she planted her feed, I gave her lots of leg (tried for a few minutes) then gave her a kick (that's the time she bucked) I feel as it was her way of giving me "attitude" but then she walked on and continued where I wanted her to go.
The thing I find very weird with her is she doesn't care about going back to the barn. Most horses are racing to go back but not her.
I'm going to try and make time to ride her for my mom, I feel like I can work her through this but it will take a lot of time.
And don't worry! no body's comments have offended me, I have thought of it too at one point or an other. No tomatoes today!
I'm just keeping hope for my mom. I'll probably have to put some hours on for her. They do very well in the outdoor together at the walk and trot which is why my mom probably isn't ready to let go. It's mostly the trails she has issues with
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on Aug 27, 2014 10:45:30 GMT
This horse"s behavior appears to be similar to Peaches which is confusing to figure out what's going on and a tightrope act to respond appropriately.
If this horse didn't want to follow I would think fear because after all the last in line is the first to get eaten. But perhaps first in line feels alone and in danger? But you say she isn't barn sour so it isn't that she doesn't want to go out its that she doesn't want to be first. But the bucking, that is the far end of the resistance spectrum which still can be fear...
Unless...
If she is resistant going out by herself, led or ridden, it could be fear based which explains the resistance and buck. If she does the resistance and buck to new or complicated exercises back home then I would think a hole in the training.
Fear is not effectively dealt with the same as lack of respect. But both respond to training. Fear often looks like obstinancy.I spent years trying to pick up Peaches feet. As soon as I asked her to pick it up so I could hold it, it took 2 minutes. Now much. Less issues. I worked through it at the pace and manner she could understand. Just like that instructor who saw how well I coul ride and decided I could sit a canter. Sure I can sit a canter but I was scared spitless so she disrespected me and lost me as a student. No one wins that .
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Post by Shelly on Aug 27, 2014 15:27:52 GMT
thanks ! Ya this mare has fear issues and definitely a big lack of respect. I will get on her this week and let you know how she does. I've also had a girl out to give my mom a few lessons for mothers day and even she didn't know what to do when she was acting up... But yea, I think the big issue is my mom likes to "bargain" and she has very slow reaction times as a rider. I find genie is very predictable when your on her when she goes to act up. And she has only reared/bucked once (with me in lead). She is very spooky on the trail, any new thing she jumps, but in the outdoor she is fine and a dream to work with. I think this is probably the most difficult thing for us because we know she has the potential to be good, and she has very smooth movements which is why my mom is hesitant to say goodbye (other then being in love with her or course) So you can put a face to the name  Genie's and my moms first ride..  |
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is right. A smack to the fanny only works for me if my horse is being lazy, and my seat and feet aren't getting her to pick up the pace. Even then it is just a tap to tell her I was giving her a request, and I would appreciate if she would pay attention. If Genie is already being reactive, a sharp smack might make her react bigger. I have always been told, to counter a reactive situation with lots of calm work, work, work, like changing direction, moving the shoulders or the hip, and things like that, than go back to what you want them to do as if nothing happened.
But you know, we all think in such different ways that you really didn't restate anything. I really like what you were saying about backing down the trail. It reminds me of what I've heard a million times, don't fight with the horse, if they want to <whatever>, let them and then do that over and over and over again (except bucking maybe??) until they realize that they're idea ain't so great and your idea then becomes theirs because its easier. No muss, no fuss in that way. You aren't trying to "get them to do something", you're going with their idea and then showing them how their idea is no picnic.
And beautiful spoiled paint horses. smileys-hearts-532620
Genie's and my moms first ride..