hugs
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Post by hugs on Jul 8, 2014 11:36:41 GMT
Right now I'm re-re-reading "Horses Never Lie, The Heart of Passive Leadership" by Mark Rashid. Just to be clear, the passive part isn't how the leader acts but how the herd chooses the leader. I've always had this sense that for me to be a herd leader doesn't need to involve being big and scary or pushy and yanking down on the lead, although a tug now and again isn't necessarily a bad thing. Reading Tom Dorrance also validated my point of view. I think the pushiness comes from folks who "want to get this thing done" and don't take the time it takes. But we do find ourselves in situations where we need to "get something done" and feel forced to use intimidation tactics. For me I'll get more forceful when I get scared. I know its a reaction and I need to resolve it but that requires having another tactic or technique available and sometimes I simply run out of ideas! Would you guys mind sharing your various experiences with me? Since right now I'm again away from home and can't do anything horsie until I get things settled out (ugh, again) I'd like something productive to think about.  |
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Post by horselover4life on Jul 8, 2014 12:30:25 GMT
I've never really thought about it, have a "technique" nor do I follow this person or that person and buy into their gimmicks.
I am not "wishy-washy" in my everyday life and I guess it reflects in my handling of horses, mine and others.
I am the leader, no mistaking that.
I don't get "big" or ugly with them unless I need to...my demeanor is this is what we are doing. Do it....
I take time if loading a horse to give them the time to see, smell, investigate...then it is time to get on and follow me where I go. 2 tries...if you refuse on the 3rd... you WILL have your butt worked and worked hard and probably whooped as a lead mare would do to a disrespectful underling. I pick my battles carefully because I am going to win it.
Other than that... well...you must have some idea of what my personality is like by how I write...now add breathing to that and that pretty much sums me up.
I have always been a leader never a follower even as a child
I have a smart, strong mind and use it, make my own decisions.
I'm far from afraid of anything, but do respect what my limitations and abilities are.
I have common sense and rely on it HUGELY to keep me safe in all my days activities.
My handling, working and riding of horses is a extension of who, what and how I am as a person.
When I get scared or realize I am in to deep, I get quiet and think on my feet to get me safely out of danger. I can't out-muscle so I better out-think that horse.
Particular trainer...no.
Years ago when no internet or TV shows existed you could see a horse trainer was a real horse trainer...not a hyped selling this gimmick or that gimmick person...but a real trainer who worked with everyday items on hand not specially made, labeled, bought and sold.
I laugh when I see demonstrations by the "horse-trainer of today"...he arrives in his fancy car, a fancy-shirt, designer fit jeans and custom boots.
Trainers that I worked with and respected went to work in a truck, a denim button-down shirt or t-shirt, blue-jeans and a pair of dusty boots all of which had seen better days. Not pressed, starched, and polished...but sweat equity in their clothing and their hat had sweat marks all over it, was dirty and left a dust storm in its wake if it was "dusted-off"..........
Tom Dorrance...that is a horseman, a real trainer of horses and people with simple language and methods he shares and common sense.
Never read Mark Rashid...something I'll look into when I get past the next few weeks/months of family responsibilities.
For me, I guess I would say that I use what I have access to and what is on hand as the situation needs.
I have 10' lead shanks...thank-you that is long enough if I want to make a point to a animal!
I have 30' lunge lines and that works too.
A lunge whip, a long one, that if I need to "persuade" with more than my voice... make my point and get the appropriate response, I will use it if warranted on their hide... yes. Not abuse, but use as a training aid, huge difference!
All the "special this or that stuff"....keep it! I'll keep my money in my pocket thank-you.
That is me...a compilation of being blessed to have grown up with a large number of "real" trainers, cowboys and horse whisperers who spent the time to teach me a piece of what they knew...knowledgeable horseman and woman from taking lessons at a young age to rubbing elbows with some of the very talented & biggest names in the industry. I learned from many of the legends.... I remember some of today's who's who before they became what they are today... students, apprentices...
Like I said, I was blessed!!
Now close the book and novel... smileys-home-474322
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Post by lorddaxter on Jul 8, 2014 19:13:16 GMT
Agree with HL4life, just remember that each horse is an individual too, eg I know for a fact if I used force atall on Isis for anything like out on the trail, if he has a big spook and is refusing to move forward , now on Ira or Dax they'd get a whack and they'd go but Isis, no he would prob rear or buck or flip out so while I'm not softly softly as I try that first, then I'll resort to other methods, I know I wont win a flat out fight with him, I have to use my head, ok, maybe I wanted you to walk on that side of the trail but now you are refusing to walk atall ok let's turn your head and move you a little just to get those feet moving so your brain is switching a bit, then I'll move him to the other side of the trail and by the as he thinks we are going somewhere different he's past it before he notices, believe me this bugs me no end as I hate not being able to make him face it and go the exact place I want but I guess for my safety and his it's for the best, maybe one day in the future once he trusts me completely and I trust him will we be able to move past this problem:)
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hugs
Junior Member
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Post by hugs on Jul 9, 2014 0:14:27 GMT
But all I have is to learn by your examples, please share
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Lipizzan
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Europe, Croatia
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Post by Lipizzan on Jul 9, 2014 6:51:11 GMT
 , I related with you when you said you get tough when you get scared. I do to. I am really soft with horses, never nervous. Only time I will act up is when I get scared for horses or for myself. |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Jul 9, 2014 7:54:25 GMT
I think the whole problem I have is self confidence and lack of time, which go hand in hand. When I am able to work with my horses every day, I can apply "my methods" and get results over time. But I so rarely have that "every day". I come home on weekends and I'm asked/required to do things that take up so much of my time that I don't have it to do what I want to do. I don't to make anyone else to be a bad guy, because I know I make non-horse choices trying to find a way to bring some peace into my mind so that I'm not stressed when I do horse things. So many of you say how being with your horse destresses you but I find the opposite because I can't just get on and ride, I don't feel safe doing that since Buster's gone. Before he passed I could always count on him to not hurt me, he could certainly try my patience but at least I knew I was safe. Now I only have a horses who aren't Buster.
Only lately has Penny shown that she really enjoys human company. And I want a horse who wants to be with me, so I was put off. And while a lot of you ride 15h and taller horses, her 15.2 adds another layer of difficulty for me. Peaches is a shorty, 14 on a clear day, but I don't know if she's going to blow like she did that one time and it worries me. Ziggy isn't home right now but she seemed to be quite okay and calm with me, which was building my confidence but Gerald insisted on leading her and he doesn't operate the same as I do so there was the conflict there. Now again, I don't want to paint Gerald as a bad guy or blame him for anything but I wish with all of my heart that he had more patience and understanding. The last time with Ziggy was going well until he lost his cool, which upset Ziggy and I just had a melt down because her antics scared the poo out of me. And it didn't need to happen.
This week I'm starting my new job and rebuilding my life again. Hopefully today I hear from the rental agency that they've accepted my application and I can move in and start to get settled as I've been living in a motel, which is expensive but otherwise if I stayed with one of my kids, there would be three people, one bathroom and an hour drive to work one way.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm whining, but gosh darn it, I am! I hate this starting over and over and over again. This job has a 6 month probation not to mention Minnesota is a "right to work" state which really means right to fire although also right to quit but gosh, how does a person try hard to learn their job and not feel insecure?!
Anyway, if I can at least read your experiences, imagine them, think about them and see myself in them, then at least I'm doing what I can to be prepared for when I do go home and try things with my horses. I want someone with me to explain to me what the horse is thinking, interpret how the horse is responding so I understand. Rather than do what I do at home and then have to wait to when I go back to the cities, get on this computer and tell you about it and then have you help me. Or maybe after I work with my horses I run into town to the Caribou coffee and post here and wait for you to respond.
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Post by horselover4life on Jul 9, 2014 10:40:14 GMT
Honestly, for me it isn't something I do only with my horses.
It is how I live my life everyday.
I am a confident person..
If I am unsure, I ask...someone whom I trust the judgement, wisdom and know their ways are much the same as mine.
I go about my everyday life with my job, my home & family and my horses all pretty much handled with self-assurance... if I get in over my head, I am not ashamed or afraid to let it be known and ask for help in any part of my daily existence.... but I tried first!
I don't know if there is anyway to teach self-assurance...mine with horses just came from handling them, sometimes I got into trouble and would need quick assistance to get safe again, but I learned how to read body language in humans and all animals {except snakes  } and to ask accordingly or demand compliance...
I think one of the biggest for me is I demand respect but also give respect in return...from everyone and everything....kind of goes hand in hand with being self-assured...
If I am wrong, I have no shame in admitting it even in front of a group of people and apologizing...
I don't know it all, am open to others ways of doing but also won't just do as I was told till my brain has thought it out first....my head rules, then my emotions and heart are allowed to get in on the act.
I am self-assured and confident. I go about my day wearing that "attitude" I guess you could say...in turn the horses give me respect and "lead mare status" as they know I won't put up with their nonsense..it isn't tolerated, period!
Not sure that answered your "how???"........... 
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Post by lorddaxter on Jul 9, 2014 12:33:27 GMT
Im kinda in the same boat as you , I don't get to work or be with them every day, one week I'll do lots and they will be getting better, then something happens and the consistency is lost and I'm back to square one, so frustrating, then throw in the 7-8 months when you can't ride here due to cold or ground conditions and they are basically untouched other than farrier visits! I do wonder lots why I even have them, I miss competing like you wouldn't believe, I have no flat area to work them so have to ride green nervous horses on the road, I have no stall or stable to spend time with them in the winter, I'd love to be able to bring them in and brush them and love on them, it's so frustrating, I haven't even told anyone this but Dax is frustrating me no end right now! I have no idea what's wrong with him to the point I am going to contact an animal psychic just to try, he has changed, it's like he just doesn't love me anymore and I don't know why, he acts like I'm going to beat him, he rolls his eyes when I approach him, then I catch him and he is all spooky, he stands nice to brush, I haven't even ridden him much this year but when I did he is awful to bridle and is spooking at everything, sorry I had to just get this off my chest. I used to be very hard with my horses when I was younger and competing, that's the way my trainer taught me, now when I got Isis and Ira as colts I'm afraid I went the opposite and was obviously way too soft as they toltally walked all over me and had no manners atall, I still don't trust either of them tied as I've seen what they are capable of, Isis is especially bad and seems to have no concern about hurting himself just to 'get away' I do try to think ok is it physical first, but usually it's not, I do feel a lot of people blame physical issues for their horses behaviour, I'd bet that the numbers would show the majority is behavioural, then of course you've let the horse away with it for so long thinking it may be a physical problem so now it's deep rooted and harder to retrain or fix, just putting that out there:) Sometimes animals are frustrating but you can't help but love them. |
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on Jul 10, 2014 3:12:14 GMT
LD, I'm sorry your frustrations make me feel a little bit better than I'm not alone in these circumstances. Frustrating doesn't nearly cover it does it? I'm glad I have you guys and I'm grateful I have a vivid imagination. Its not my automatic response to think positively but you guys do help me out on that one. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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Now where can I get me some chocolate
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redzip
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Post by redzip on Jul 10, 2014 3:54:57 GMT
I have wanted to read Mark Rashid, I've heard his books are good.
I am a HUGE Ray Hunt, John Lyons, Tom Dorrance 'philosophies' fan.
I believe that every horse is an individual, so what works with one, doesn't necessarily
work with another.
I always thought Ray Hunt's philosophy of making his horse 'want' to be his partner, was on target.
Don't know if you every read 'Think Harmony With Horses' by Ray Hunt,., but
his goal was to have his horse be his partner, .., and have the horse ENJOY his job,..,
I've been to two John Lyons clinics over the years, and one thing his horses did was
run up to him like dogs,.,
they could not wait to engage with him in whatever he wanted them to do.
It was pretty awesome to see, and they obviously enjoyed their 'job'.
There are some 'pearls of wisdom' in 'Think Harmony With Horses' that
I think are the essence of that relationship we seek with our horses.
Another thing I'm finding with Zippy is, TRUST IS HUGE for him.
It is 'hard earned' in his case, but when he gives his trust to you, its big.
Zippy's need for self preservation is huge, he doesn't let his guard down easily.
Just some observations of what constitutes leadership for Zippy,
as he is considerably more dominant than Red ever was.
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on Jul 10, 2014 12:00:55 GMT
Red, yes, I've read Harmony and a couple other Hunt/Dorrance books. I also like the John Lyons philosophy. I don't remember where I got this but if one of your friends all of a sudden didn't want to be with you anymore, wouldn't you suppose it was something you did, rather than blame the friend? Kinda covers part of the issue right there.
So when I pushed Ziggy hard to get my result, I thought being more forceful was better because it will get the job done faster, which was to make her want to stop moving so fast. But what if I had put pressure on her but only to a walk. IN THE HORSES'S mind it could of done the same thing! Again, I'm "scared" or at the very least think I'm at a disadvantage because I'm small and weak compared to the horse so I have to show force to protect myself. But my true advantage is my brain! Because the default is that horses WANT to herd with us. But you know, that involves TRUST! And trust is that one thing Dorrance and Hunt keep talking about isn't it?
Oh for goodness sake, this is nearly comical.
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Post by lorddaxter on Jul 10, 2014 12:34:00 GMT
LD, I'm sorry your frustrations make me feel a little bit better than I'm not alone in these circumstances. Frustrating doesn't nearly cover it does it? I'm glad I have you guys and I'm grateful I have a vivid imagination. Its not my automatic response to think positively but you guys do help me out on that one. Thank you, thank you, thank you. . . . . . . . . Now where can I get me some chocolate One thing to add, if you are going to 'train' your horse to accept something you know it doesn't like then at least be completely ready for any reaction you may get, see my thread with video in horse stories lol! |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Jul 22, 2014 0:50:27 GMT
Finally coming back to this with a different mindset.
I believe in myself more and am not trying to be a leader like I see others do it or think they're doing it. Do it like I do. I can always blame the horse or lack of opportunity, right? LOL
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, I related with you when you said you get tough when you get scared. I do to. I am really soft with horses, never nervous. Only time I will act up is when I get scared for horses or for myself. 
} and to ask accordingly or demand compliance...
