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Post by horselady on May 21, 2017 11:36:50 GMT
ok.. one question.. english horse that only knows english bit.. how does and what equipment (bit) can be used to transfer to western, and how do we get his head down and relax..  .. i will fill in details of his training later.  |
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Post by horselover4life on May 21, 2017 23:36:02 GMT
what bit hl is he riding in?
You can use near any English bit western....mouthpiece is a mouthpiece.
Only time that may not work is if you show "breed" and they require a certain age horse to ride in a shank bit.
So, if you ride by leg and seat the horse should push forward into your hand and actually if you reduce the contact and hold, make him search for it he will drop into the bridle and bit...
Ride from behind and push forward but don't make the "wall" with your hands.
Western does loose rein riding hence the seat and legs need training and conditioning to truly ride the western trained horse. English as you know is light contact...
Although a short cut...draw reins in the right hands can lower head carriage.
However, today western horses no longer ride with a hanging head but level poll with wither or just slightly higher.
What I still see differences in is impulsion and speed of travel.
Trot in English is faster than jog in western...
I find this true in most gaits, English is more ground covering than western slow.
Personally, I would rather see a relaxed "on the buckle" ridden horse English than a peanut rolling western horse who is miserable head hung low and such slow it is false movement and frame.
jmo...
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Post by horselady on May 23, 2017 13:11:43 GMT
Thanks..all great advice..which but will be like a snaffle jointed euth a roller I can substitute and work as Western?
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Post by horselover4life on May 23, 2017 14:26:56 GMT
www.statelinetack.com/item/western-ss-copper-roller-snaffle-d-ring-bit/WBM10/
www.statelinetack.com/item/western-ss-dogbone-copper-ring-argentine-bit/WBA28/
www.statelinetack.com/item/reinsman-dogbone-roller-snaffle-d-ring-bit/E003491/
www.amazon.com/Colorado-Saddlery-Training-Snaffle-Stainless/dp/B01DVZB3H4/ref=sr_1_13?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1495547487&sr=1-13&keywords=western+snaffle+bits+for+horses
www.amazon.com/Myler-Western-without-Hooks-5-Inch/dp/B004BPUO8S/ref=sr_1_20?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1495547583&sr=1-20&keywords=western+snaffle+bits+for+horses
Any of the "Billy Allen" style mouths can work too...
www.amazon.com/billy-allen-bit/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abilly%20allen%20bit
I like many of the Billy Allen styles because I see and feel a stability in the mouth, a gentle communication given and soft mouth attained.
Western just like English, shorter the shank the less leverage and poll pressure exerted.
Unless though the horse is showing in specific classes, he can go in any "ring" bit.
Not sure about a curb chain needed and I know certain older aged horses is particular named classes must be shank bit and curb chain bridle to enter a ring.
I see many riding with "d-ring" bits, some in loose rings and eggbutt, a few in full cheek used without bit loops {why I don't know but then again, that is the fad today...easy way and lazy}.
My horse rides in a Billy Allen mouth, short shank and loosest curb chain I can adjust...on a looped rein always for my son...
This horse does not neck rein yet proficiently so you do have to 2-hand steer him sometimes.
Biggest thing I can say to get the horse riding western versus English is teach the horse to neck rein, lightest touch and move he does.
I also ride and can steer with my legs my other horse....mine turns into pressure. {if I cue with left leg at the cinch he turns and wraps left, right to the right...both legs consistent he goes straight and or faster}
Now, I am told by my sons instructor that my horse is backward and should turn away from pressure, so a left leg turns right and vice versa...
I don't know which is correct and don't really care.
I know my horses cues and work with it when riding.
So, bottom line though is....technically...
A snaffle is a direct rein bit... rein attaches at the mouthpiece like a d-ring, eggbutt, o-ring and full-cheek.
As soon as you add a shank you went to a curb bit regardless of the mouthpiece in the mouth..
Snaffle bit = no leverage bit.
A shank = curb bit.
Curb bits apply leverage to the poll and jaw.
I don't know if the links to a smattering of "western snaffle roller bits" will work or not.
If not, copy & paste them to see what I was trying to show.
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Post by horselady on May 23, 2017 18:46:34 GMT
Thanks.. i will try to experiment with them.. i do like the short shank copper d
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Post by horselady on May 25, 2017 11:21:27 GMT
his head was up and had no mouth with the western bits.. and even the d ring snaffle that was trained in did nothing
the only bit that worked was a snaffle with a raised port with a roller.
if she buys this horse she will need to put some time into him to get his back to his calm. easy ride. self.. 30 days.. in the school ring.
any other suggestions.. greatly apprecited
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Post by horselover4life on May 26, 2017 1:51:17 GMT
Horse sounds evasive and inverted... 
Does she ride with legs at all? Sit quietly or bump and bounce...
If ridden English does he travel the same way {sky high head} or does he drop into the bridle, round and come from behind and underneath himself traveling?
How does he carry his head if you get astride?
How is she sitting on him?
Where is she sitting on him?
On the vertical, behind the vertical, chair seated or aligned and seat bones in the saddle pocket where they belong?
Is she in the horses sweet spot herself, the horses balance point with where she sits?
Is saddle fit correct to the back? Channel not to narrow or to wide? Is the tree intact?
Does she have enough wither clearance and not pinching his shoulders? Re-check that carefully along with the channel width with rider astride...it can change!
Is the saddle possibly to long hitting him in the kidney/loin area and he is evading from pain...
It may be that she needs a trainer to put 30 rides {6 weeks} on the horse to get him to relax. 4 weeks trainer on the horse and another 2 weeks her riding with instruction so she learn the horse correctly...
A low ported bit with a roller does not bother me at all.
No pinch from a joint, no jab to the roof...
Stability and tongue relief and a toy to moisten the mouth....
As long as the horse is not giving because of poll pressure, jaw pressure from a curb chain and shanks.
His head high can be because of those things and his not understanding what is being asked...
Are the shanks straight, swept back and how high is the headstall loop on this bit?
If close to the mouthpiece there is less poll crank pressure even just the horse holding the bit...this bit also should sit lower in the mouth, not 2 wrinkles in the corner.
Straight shank is no advance warning but immediate "BAM" information sent.
Swept back shanks offer a warning as the reins are picked up and used.
Do you have a segunda bit by chance?
I know its looks are harsh but it is a tongue relief bit too...
What about a plain mullen mouth bar bit?
For the Segunda soft hands are needed for cueing but I would be curious what he does with it in his mouth...
Can you ride him in the same tack this rider used and see if you get the same reaction or different?
A quiet rider supportive of the horse but not interfering with him...
OK....more things to consider, maybe try or already did and dismal failure....
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Post by horselady on Jun 2, 2017 19:40:58 GMT
Found out this particular horse likes a kimberwick,,,, who would have known,, lady rode him and was afraid to trot him,, he picks his head up as he starts to pick up his trot and it worried her,, no sale. if she is afraid than does not pay to sell him to her,, but every time i work with him I learn something new ...  |
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Post by horselover4life on Jun 3, 2017 12:36:48 GMT
I have a Kimberwick like that myself.
Combination of straight bar and tongue relief and almost no poll pressure.. A curb chain that some horses just like to "feel" and some need engagement of it to heighten response of cues.
Our paint horse goes well in this bit for my husband..if hubby used a little more leg pressure steering he would need no hand/rein pressure except to hold his horse still and halted. 
Glad you said no to the sale...
If the lady doesn't realize the horse is lifting the head in the transfer of weight from forehand to hind-end motor for the "push-off" she has not the knowledge to enjoy a well trained horse.
She also was not helping that transfer if she was frightened by it..
Most English trained horses do travel with a higher head carriage at the trot.
Again,... You, dear lady know that to be true...
A better partnership for this horse is coming...continue to be picky for the horses well-being! 
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Post by horselady on Jun 4, 2017 0:26:36 GMT
I wish you would consider buying him, he is a dream horse,, and i am not pushing to sell unless right person comes along,, |
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Post by horselady on Jun 7, 2017 11:09:19 GMT
The lady contacted me last night and wants to buy this horse. she is gong to be working with a trainer and she loves him already,, her husband probably told her to get him, as he was very taken with cody.. so saturday he leaves for a new venture,, and phase of his life.. mixed feelings for me,, glad and sad. can not feed them all.. |
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Post by horselover4life on Jun 8, 2017 11:04:49 GMT
The selling point is "working with a trainer" for me.
Recognizes she isn't going to make a team on her own with him and already reached out for a guiding hand to benefit the horse, then her.
For hubby, being taken with the animal is good as he won't be resentful of the time spent at the barn as he will probably be around too just offering scratches and treats...
I think I see a spoiled horse in the future.
And no, you can't save them all or keep everyone for yourself forever.
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Post by horselady on Jun 10, 2017 23:58:28 GMT
He is in his new home,, loaded like a champ, never looked back i got teary eyed when he screamed and his herd mates talked back,, as if to say nice knowing you guys see ya over yonder,.. as i am typing this i hear his herd mate calling out to him,,, in a few days all will be quiet.. |
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Post by horselady on Jun 25, 2017 0:16:39 GMT
Got an update on the horse,, he is doing well. trying to please her and she is working him easy, rode him twice walk trot and she said if he has to pick up his head she will get used to it. I told her that time. trust and love he will be her horse for a long time.. and she agreed.  |
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572 
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Post by Lipizzan on Jul 1, 2017 10:46:54 GMT
I understand the mixed feeling you had. I always have them too when my father sells our horses. In last month he sold two. And I was not home to say Goodbye. I am glad horse is doing good and I am surethez will get along just fine.
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