Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572 
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Post by Lipizzan on Sept 17, 2016 13:59:01 GMT
So some of you know I have over the years tried to change a few bits for my mare Gaetana.
She is specific in a way that she can be as soft as a horse can be in the most simple bit, or when she does not want to work not even a chained bit helps.
I tried full cheek, bits with leverage, tom thumb, double joined, D-rings, egg rings, loose rings, bits with leverage and chain(which I hate).
Sometimes she will listen perfect but sometimes she will lean on that bit and break my hand.
I was thinking of trying hackamore? My bf has one new one and I could get it cheap, I would like to try bitless bridle also, maybe a lg bridle. I don't honestly know.
There where I worked was a mare that was very difficult on a bit, but with hackamore only little tiny pressure was enough.
I don't know.
Help!!!
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 17, 2016 20:51:52 GMT
Bitless....have used the real Dr. Cooks brand on several horses now with my son.
My feelings and understanding on it...
It works by pressure points.. poll, nose, under-jaw.
I have used the nylon version so my comments concern only these...there are other "material" versions available.
I have found that there is minimal release of the pressures exerted. Even if you loop the rein loose, the straps do not release, continuing the pressure. I find the straps you must be extremely critical and careful to make them with "0" twists to them or they are more force exerting on the face.
Now, my son has ridden, competed in Special Olympics using this as his bridle. My son can be rougher with his hands do to his disability {although getting much better} so taking away a bit saved the horses mouth. My horses, his riding horse and competition show horse are all extremely well trained, soft in the face and mouth, very compliant personality...never ran through anything bit wise like you describe Lip...
I've ridden in the bitless and don't like it, period.
I find the finesse of communication is missing....
I feel like I must ride with more "grand gestures" than a tweak of the pinky or ring finger...
I feel like I have no better control or communication than with a halter and shanks, maybe less...
I will not use this kind of bridle on a horse trail-riding...just won't.
I would be faster to accept a hackamore on a horse and feel better in my communication than the bitless.
I have ridden some in hackamores..
Again, the finesse of communication you have with a bit in the mouth is missing but I "felt" better about being in control and a rider not passenger astride.
I am not good about what is what in technical names but describing the hacks I used...
One had very long shanks with a braided round noseband that was extremely stiff, like wire inside.
One I know was a English hackamore...
The other I think was a "homemade" version of... plastic covered wire cable, shanks about 4"-5" in length that were "S" shaped like I think of a gaited bit having. I was told a shadow roll should of been on the noseband but was missing to soften the bridle and look of it. IDK.
I rode the English one on a horse in the barn I worked at that was being shown for sale.
Due to a serious mouth injury {tongue nearly cut in half} the horse could not carry a bit but went well in the hack {in a indoor ring I rode}.
The horse was impeccably trained for one. I barely thought what I wanted and it was being done...incredible to ride this animal!
I had great communication, tweak of my finger and request fulfilled...again the animal was so well trained.
I was by myself, no other distractions or horses for me to know how handling in company would be...
So, I rode the other style of hack on horses with less training and degree of finesse.
I felt I had to ride stronger with my legs, seat as my hands were not quite the messenger I was used to.
Those watching said I looked no different in amount of using my hands for communication although I felt like I had to do "more"...
I rode in rings, outdoor ring with these but still inside solid fenced areas.
It may be a mental thing with me...I admit that.
I was taught to ride with a bit with quiet, forgiving hands, arms and body.
To "feel" like I needed to move so much more of my hand and arm was a weird feeling to me...
To not "feel" the horses mouth as they moved the bit in it...it is foreign to me.
I missed that finesse of communication.
Now...the Dr. Cooks bridle.
I felt like I had no control, period. To hold it in my hand it feels like a nylon halter and 2 shanks attached.
If my horse wanted to leave the planet he was going to with or without me...yes, my confidence was that absent using this bridle.
Beside watching and seeing the fact there was no "release" of pressure, no loosening of straps apparent....
The bridle was used on our paint horse, a trustworthy mount I trust my sons life with...
Our horse Chance who was very responsive..but on a trail he was a nervous wreck.
I tried the bitless, no thanks, he rode a bit {was still nervous}
He did respond great in a ring with it, but he was different in a ring than on a trail.
Both horses though lacked the finesse of communication. BOth my horses are western trained and neck rein extraordinaire.
The other horse I know who rode in this was my sons original lesson horse owned by his instructor.
That horse could be ridden in either bit or bitless...
My biggest grump against it is I can not see or feel a release of pressure from the face or poll pressure...those straps always resembled "tight" and that is just not fair to the complying animal.
Many swear by them, I am not a fan...
I own 2 bitless bridles as my horses did not have the same head structure and the smaller would not fit my larger head of my paint horse. They hang on a hook in my garage collecting dust..tell you how much I will not use them!
My hackamore bit sits in my tack box as I don't know enough to truly correctly fit it and if not perfectly fit it can be cruel and dangerous to the horse to use. I won't harm my horse from my ignorance if I can help it...so it sits unused.
NOw my bridles are the Dr. Cook bridles, bought new and tagged as official Dr. Cook bridle.
My medium size bridle just fit my 14.2 hand quarter horse. Chance had a average size head, tapered muzzle.
My "large" bitless fit my 15.2-3 hand quarter paint horse. Hondo has a larger head that fits his heavier bone structure. The large size gave me some wiggle room in adjustments, but if the horse has a over-sized head I am not sure this would fit. I would strongly suggest you take good measurements and speak to someone before spending that kind of money buying something that may be hard to exchange in your area. Dr. Cooks are not cheap. The headstall alone is about $70.00 {American} at the cheapest I have ever seen.
What I have found and experienced...
Sorry for the book...
Now to read what other have and how they like or not their choices...
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Sept 19, 2016 17:07:41 GMT
I would like to read what others have to say before I comment.
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Post by horselover4life on Sept 19, 2016 17:29:00 GMT
I would like to read what others have to say before I comment.
I am "no authority", always open to others point of view, experiences and expertise.
The day you can't or won't be open to learning something from another is the day you get hurt or worse...
There is always another way, a different opinion and something to learn.
Like it or not...be open to others thoughts and information shared!!
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Post by horselady on Sept 19, 2016 19:33:38 GMT
I have never been a fan of bitless.. and as hl4l has said (ahh the book) it does not release the pressure and needs to be hand loosened again or the leathers twisted to not allow the leathers to pull tight on the nose
the bitless is not for a horse that is head strong or needs correction by using that bit.. or a stop..
a friend of mine acquired this older walking mare and she was convinced to use a bitless in the mares mouth.. well on the second ride the mare decided that it was time to pull and run.. so she did. thru the woods and into the road.. and almost running into a car. NO STOP or turn was available to my friend .. so the bitless is hanging on the wall
If you decide to use the bitless than use it in a confined area so she gets used to it. and you get the feel for it. the reins are used as leading reins meaning if you go left you pull with the left and to the right pull to the right.. actually leading the nose in the direction you want to go.
that is what i was told by my instructor ages ago.
as for a hackamore.. the pressure points on the nose and pole and cheeks cause the horse to say "Whoa what is that. on my face.. better stop" again used with light hands and just a finger is used for use of this type of bridle..
the bosal is another way to go.. a rawhide piece over the nose with a dangle under the nose with reins attached.. this acts as a stop using the pressure of the leather on the nose and that will cause the nose to come down and in.. again use this with caution until your horse begins to understand the different pressure and what it is for.
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on Sept 20, 2016 0:19:43 GMT
So some of you know I have over the years tried to change a few bits for my mare Gaetana. She is specific in a way that she can be as soft as a horse can be in the most simple bit, or when she does not want to work not even a chained bit helps. I tried full cheek, bits with leverage, tom thumb, double joined, D-rings, egg rings, loose rings, bits with leverage and chain(which I hate). Sometimes she will listen perfect but sometimes she will lean on that bit and break my hand. I was thinking of trying hackamore? My bf has one new one and I could get it cheap, I would like to try bitless bridle also, maybe a lg bridle. I don't honestly know. There where I worked was a mare that was very difficult on a bit, but with hackamore only little tiny pressure was enough. I don't know. Help!!! You are really answering your basic question right here. It isn't the bit, is it Lipizzan? Nope. The bit has nothing to do with her attitude. I'm smiling because you are such an astute observer of horses and this is a perfect opportunity to put those detective skills to work. You need to find out what she is resisting, not what piece of tack is going to force her through. That's not softness, that's not willingness and that is NOT your kind of horsemanship. I had a similar breakthrough with Peachie; when I go out in the horse pasture with all of our riding tack does she come up to me, sometimes even at a lope! Follow me into the round pen so willingly. Stand perfectly still while I tack her up, putting her little soft nosie through the bosal all by herself, sometimes even before I've lifted it up to her. She'll be the most careful horse when I'm riding her but when it comes to the mounting block, she'll push me off! Then I realized that she only does that when I get on the top step, not when I'm in the middle or the bottom! Horses naturally have fear of predators above them! Something is bothering Gaetana, I wonder what it is? |
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Post by carshon on Sept 20, 2016 15:05:24 GMT
I have never ridden bitless but rode my Morgan/Paint mare in a mechanical hackamore for more than 20 years. My mare would run through any and all bits we used on her. She would tense her neck or had learned to arch her neck with her nose on her chest to escape the pressure. No amount of pulling or trying to pull her head to the side worked.
I moved to a mechanical hackamore and that eased most of the problems we had with stopping. However, she had also learned that if the reins were not engaged a little she could get her tongue around one of the shanks and put it in her mouth and do whatever she wanted. She was a horse that had to be ridden by a rider who was "aware" of what was happening.
Gaetana sounds like a smart mare that has learned to be "good"when the moment suits her - Instead of looking for a different bit try relaxing exercises to get her more focused on you. Keep her involved and engaged so she wants to listen
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on Sept 20, 2016 17:56:09 GMT
Carshon, oh my; using her tongue to put the shank in her mouth?! LOL What a clever aminal :-) I love it. Not if I were riding her and she took off but you know, in concept lol
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Sept 21, 2016 13:02:50 GMT
I have read what you all have said. I agree on some point's on some don't. The big issue of mine is that I don't have an arena, don't have round pan or a fenced area where I can practice carefree. When I ride I ride out on a street or on a trail. You are right  that it is not about bit's, it's about me. But how can I enjoy my rides without thinking if maybe something happens and my horse runs, I would not be able to stop her? I kind of think that for example, a hackamore would be a good idea because she would not be pulling on a bit, I could ride with a soft hand but in an emergency, I could stop. With bits, she does exactly what Carson described. And that is the case only when we are in "home area" in my village. When we go somewhere outside village she is the most calmest and sweetest horse. At home, she is nervous wreck always trying to go home. I did get her to be better at one point but she got a foal and hasn't be ridden for over 6 months. Now when we are starting to separate them and I sometimes go ride her alone, she is crazy. I can understand that she wants to go home to her foal, but she has to listen at all time. And I don't feel safe with a bit riding her. |
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mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
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Post by mistersmom on Sept 21, 2016 13:52:18 GMT
Lip - it all comes down to what you feel is right and safe for you to do. Try a hackamore and see if that is better for you and her. But as you say, she also needs to work out her separation anxiety as well. Do as before...just go a little further everyday as well as making the wrong thing hard work and the right thing easy time (e.g. doing easy things away from home and working hard at home - but of course you need control to do these things. ;-) )
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Sept 21, 2016 14:09:24 GMT
I know it is just abut training training training. But If I have time to work with her every day I would. She is just a one of a kind hehe. My silly horse  |
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on Sept 21, 2016 14:59:04 GMT
Lipizzan I'm afraid there is no quick fix. I'm sorry but there is no tack or tool that will keep you safe.
Learn techniques to improve your safety should she take off, like the one rein stop, there is a lot of adjustments a person can do with that technique to fit all kinds of situations.
I'm sorry but it doesn't sound like you've done enough work with her at home. Forgive me but I wouldn't take her anywhere until I had control and response at home.
Listen I know what it's like to train a horse under less than ideal conditions and I know what it's like to only be able yo be with my horse once every couple months!
I think the best thing you can do is give up your expectations on when your horse is ready to ride out on her own with you.
Honor your horse and keep safety number one.
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Sept 21, 2016 15:24:27 GMT
Jup, maybe...
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Oct 27, 2016 16:13:42 GMT
I have been working with my mare for a while now. I kind of take credit for all "bad" she is. Every day I would go different ways toward home, and when we reach the gate, I would turn, made one more round and then back, then again and again until she would stop going home in trot, and more walking. She eventually started to walk but it was still a fast walk hehe. First day she was just going and going and going,my hands were hurting while trying to make her go slower, and then I thought to myself, ok, you want to go, then go. I think she was trotting for an hour and then I felt her head dropped down and she started to walk, and I was in "aha" moment, I got you, sister. But she did not walk, I made her trot for 5 more minutes just to make her get the point. She was walking all the way home. Then we reached our street, she again started to go faster. I made her go one more round, and it was it for a day. Today it was better, she still tried to go faster home, but I saw I have a big poodle across my gate, and I started to make her go in that deep poodle as she hates water. I was making her step in water for few rounds and then turned and went away from the gate. When I was going back, magically she was walking. And then I let her enter. I was so happy. We will see how she will react tomorrow. |
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mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
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Post by mistersmom on Oct 28, 2016 1:13:00 GMT
Sounds like you have her brain figured out. I am a big fan of the "oh, you want to do x, then you will do x until you are very tired of it". Once Mister decided he didn't want to go into the wash stall and started going backwards, well we went backwards all over the entire property (well not quite but you get the idea). After that he decided going forward was a better option. It just takes a lot of repetition and persistence which I know you will do. Good job!  |
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Oct 28, 2016 13:17:50 GMT
Today she walked home. I will post a video later. Happy |
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Post by horselady on Oct 28, 2016 17:46:43 GMT
Some times allowing a horse to do something it wants even tho you do not want it done that way. allows the horse to decide that was not a great idea and they should listen to their rider. you have done amazing work with her and she will continue to test.. and she is smart enough to figure out that if you are not pleased she is going to sweat.  |
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Oct 28, 2016 18:36:59 GMT
I am having a problem uploading a video tru my phone. But jup, I am glad we are finally becoming a team. |
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Nov 1, 2016 12:32:48 GMT
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mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
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Post by mistersmom on Nov 2, 2016 2:41:11 GMT
I LOVE it!!! Besides the wonderful sound of the steady clip clop on the road, my favorite part was hearing you talk to her in your beautiful language.
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that it is not about bit's, it's about me. 
