dc
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Post by dc on May 3, 2015 15:31:18 GMT
So, yesterday, got on Riley. Here's the thing. I had chiro out for him last year twice. He was really out. The head shaking has really lessened. Followed nicely, accepted bit, no problem saddle, ok. No head tossing. Tried to get on him a field, nah, too dang short. I hadn't wanted to go into the outdoor riding pen, as I didn't want to deal with the whole lalala land he goes into and have him trip but I did \\Then the fun began, wouldn't stand still, kept moving away from mounting block, blah blah blah, nipped at me a couple of times.
FNALLY get on, he immediately starts tossing his head like crazy and trying to jog. I stopped him, I tried to do the relax that a trainer had to taught me. nope, not waiting JOG. stop. breath, HEAD TOSS JOG. Honestly, we didn't move more than a couple of feet, but not once was it a walk attempt. I got off. He nipped at me again. Now, to be fair he could have actually got a chunk of my belly if he had wanted to. Just a nip with his lips. *PUNCH* in the neck.
Is he still hurting do you think? Just less? Last year, it would start as soon as saddle hit his back. I had thought about just sitting on him bareback. Glad I didn't
Chiro again? And if he's fine WTH do I do then?
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dc
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Post by dc on May 3, 2015 16:08:20 GMT
I guess I should clarify. I don't know what to do.
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nhg
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Post by nhg on May 3, 2015 21:44:42 GMT
Is this your first time riding him since the chiro? He may be acting out because he's used to it. It can take time for them to realize they don't have to react to pain because it's gone. Or a learned behaviour. This is how I act when I'm ridden. That type of thing.
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Post by horselady on May 4, 2015 0:28:01 GMT
I get the feeling he has not been ridden since last year. that being the case i think he needs a reminder of who is human and who is horse. by that i mean to lunge and ground work to get the kinks out. and did you ever find out why he needed such an adjustment because he was so far out of align? if you do lunge,work him over some ground poles so he picks up his feet and looks down that way he is stretching his neck and head lower. you were smart to get on in the outdoor riding pen. you were in control in there. next time he starts to do that trotting (jog) perhaps let him. let him go until he stops on his own, than you make him jog some more. take the fun out of it for him. i know that sounds like a scary situation but someone once said in a clinic. ( if they make you scared. than you have to make them fear you more) oh and that smack for him nipping at you was just a love tap. next time he does that make him back up and get into his face. yell and wave and get into his space, he will look at you like you are a wild creature. mission accomplished.  see that face. that is what you should do when he misbehaves. as a side note does his saddle fit. and what about the bridle. how about a photo with him all tacked up. just wondering. |
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Post by horselover4life on May 4, 2015 10:25:20 GMT
Ummm....have to agree it could be him just anticipating and acting out..
It could be he has a sore back if he is out.. but doubt it if he runs, plays, bucks and farts while loose in turnout.
A horse won't do anything intentional to hurt himself.
Does he move "off" or lame, favor anything when he walks, trots, canters or gallops on his own? On a lunge-line?
Will he willingly give you all his feet?
Lower his head for brushing?
Allow you to exert firm pressure on his spinal column and run that pressure from wither to tail?
Does he drop his back away from that pressure and what is he doing with his head & ears at that time?
Turn his head and neck to touch his ribcage {suppling exercises}?
Will he arch his back if you tummy tickle him?
Does he have "attitude"...probably.
If he can con you into not getting on and staying on by misbehaving he will..even Riley!
If he has a issue that is a truly different scenario and needs addressing. HOWEVER, as hl said, "Why did he have such a major adjustment needed?"
Does or did he do anything that could of misaligned him creating a tender spot or pain? Or is it remembered discomfort and that is his reaction?
Or is he just being a brat and not wanting to ride???
OF course he may not like the saddle and fit of it.
Has he gained weight, lost weight, lost muscle tone since last ridden?
All can and do affect fit...
Pictures of him naked and tacked up would be great.
Pictures of that saddle without the pad, just saddle sitting on him then again with it cinched up.
From both sides, straight down the spinal column, and side shot would really help.
Did you check your saddle pad underside to make sure there are no burrs or debris that could of stuck him accidentally?
Run your hand carefully over it feeling for a splinter not seen but felt?
Some homework for you so we can help you better....
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Post by carshon on May 4, 2015 12:44:31 GMT
I would also wonder if you are "stiff" when you are on. The horse will mimic the rider - if you are stiff and nervous he may hollow his back, toss his head in order to relax and trot out to loosen up.
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Lipizzan
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Post by Lipizzan on May 4, 2015 14:34:41 GMT
Maybe he just needs a lot of ground work to reminde him and I agree with everything that horselady said. When they try to hurt you, you have to act like a alfa horse. Yell and go into their space.
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dc
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Post by dc on May 4, 2015 14:38:09 GMT
ok, I'll try to answer. Out, chiro figured he had a fall the previous winter due to all the ice. As I didn't have the guts to try and get on until I moved, I honestly didn't know, although my bad, once I started looking I could see it. Saddle fit, I had it checked by BO and another. Neither saw an issue. And I believe I gave him what for, his head was all up with a Holy Shit look on his face. No he doesn't seem off. Other than the behavior he exhibted last year with the head tossing, and again before, when I had chiro out for him a few years ago, breaking into a jog. He definitely got agitated with a saddle even being put on, biting at saddle etc. Not this time, until I got on. I went slowly after saddle on looking for 'ouch' behavior. He was fine, no head toss, no biting at saddle. WHEN he was fine, and I was still playing at home. He continued with the head toss, breaking into a job and tripping whenever I stayed in the yard. Nada when we went out and about.
I checked pad, girth etc before putting on. I will try those exercises again that were mentioned.
In the past ALWAYS when I was nervous he would not move. Once show the exercises to relax, he wouldn't move until I did these and did relax. I'm thinking same thing about doing some basics. It's just he's always been get on and go, even after I got hurt and didn't ride for two years (except when I sat on him, hyperventilated and he didnt move)
He has lost a bit of weight, but he was getting chubby before.
It could be remembered pain, and I wanted to just stand still for a moment to relax me and give him a chance to think 'hey this doesn't hurt'
If this seems kinda all over, I was scrolling up and down trying to answer questions. And I get the make him jog, but getting on has been a challenge, nvm jogging around, and jogging is one of the things I'm not supposed to do with my back. Which to be fair if I ever get comfortable, I'm sure I will, but i need to relax and feel in contrl before attempting it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 19:26:05 GMT
I think some ground work is probably needed just as a reminder about who is the boss and what is ok and what is not.
Personally I would not have gotten on until he had stood nicely at the mounting block. Hindsight is 20/20, but I would have started hardlining it with him there.
As for the head tossing it could just be a sort of reflex response for him at this point until he learns that he doesn't hurt anymore and doesn't have to do it. That being said, I would not rule out that he is not hurting somewhere else. Have you had his teeth and poll looked at? A lot of times pain in those areas will cause head tossing.
Try your best to stay relaxed and breathing in the saddle (easier said than done I know) I find that humming or singing to myself helps me as it keeps me breathing. Try to sit deep, and think really hard about what your seat/leg might be inadvertently telling your horse. I know I personally will pinch my knee when I get nervous, and this will sometimes encourage a forward response that I didn't necessarily intend to generate.
Have you tried lunging him with his tack and see what he does? It might help his realize that he isn't sore anymore, or show you that there is something else going on.
Best of luck.
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dc
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Post by dc on May 5, 2015 12:17:59 GMT
Apollo, oh I waited until he stood. A flying leap into the saddle is not my forte lol. I can basically out patient this type of issue. We round and round backed up (harshly) every time he moved. I lunged him afterwards. Other than well, not listening. He moved off immediately, then wouldn't stop with a couple of bucks thrown. It was a free lunge, next time I'll use the rope for leverage if he doesnt listen. hmm maybe I was giving him mixed signals. Still it should have been a walk, not tring to go into a jog. Less head toss at the lunge than there was last year. I honestly cannot remember if he was head tossing, as it has seemed to become a habit, I would say he did a toss or two.
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Post by lorddaxter on May 5, 2015 12:28:23 GMT
I had a girl who was a so called trainer ride Ira for a few months, anyway long story short she screwed him up big time and to be honest with all the time I was having to spend with Isis I never rode Ira much after I sent her away, anyway when I did try to ride him he was so tense, wouldnt stand to mount(before he was like a rock, no reins needed)his halt had disappeared, he tosses his head, grabs the bit, very aggitated, Im planning on riding him again this week and hoping time has now made him forget these bad habits!
Anyway, the lady who broke him taught me to keep his back legs crossing if he gets upset or naughty, this does help, just tiny small tight circles gets his mind focused on his legs and brings his head down.
Personally I would not free school him, you should always have the lunge line on so you are always in some control, if he starts acting stupid pull him in on his face then send him out again.
The head tossing and grabbing the bit is worrying me about Ira, I had his teeth done october and they werent that bad, so its become a habit, Ive tried numerous bits and bitless to no avail so I can sympathise with you, I will update once Ive ridden him soon, it sounds like you are firm with him, hes most likely just pushing his luck, hopefuly once he learns it wont get him anywhere he will stop!
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dc
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Post by dc on May 9, 2015 0:27:46 GMT
So, this is why I think a barn may be a good thing for me. At leas this one. The BO, Lisa came out to visit while I was there. I got Riley all tacked, she checked the saddle. She was telling me that he looks forlorn when they get their horses, and if they are walking the hayfield he follows along as far as he can inside the paddock. I was heading for the round pen then changed my mind. Asking her if she could just spend a few mins with me. Hold while I get on and relax. He fussed a wee bit at standing at the mount, immediatey tried to move off as I got in the saddle. As I tried to relax, yup, Apollo was right, I was clenched up including my legs. She led us, and off we go with the head shake and the trippng. (he has tripped it,s how I got hurt and have seen him do when lunging) Just like when I tried to ride in the yard. I mentioned "the tripping really makes me nervous" She replied "um, Alix, he's not tripping, he's stamping his foot on each step like a 2 year old in a trantrum" He's excited, he wants to go and he's being pissy about it. We went over how this was typical behavior when riding in the yard, and even his first trainer had commented how much easier he was to teach when riding on roads and open fields. "That is good Alix, as that is your goal, but not what you want at this point. He may want to go, you do not. I would give him a good workout in the roundpen first next time, to cool down his excitement and energy, then get on"
To be honest I've rarely lunged, I've just gotten on. He never really needed it, when I did do it, it was for me.
So we had a good session in the round pen, no tripping either. I was done in, but curious, took him to the mounting block, he stood still. I put foot in the stirrup, he stood still, I bounced, he stood still. I leaned on saddle and bounced, he stood still. I was so wishing he still had his bridle on.
So next time, lunge first and then see what happens. If he does the head toss foot stamp (which really does feel like he's tripping), we'll round pen again.
Sure I'm not riding YET, but I've gotten into the saddle, and we worked for 3 hours today from beginning groom - to grazing groom. I was so happy, a pair of eyes on the ground.....I'd still be freaking about the 'tripping' I know it's not really a big thing, but it's a start. I got over this once before, and enjoyed myself immensely the summer working my way up to an hour saddle time. (yes I know, some of you do hours lol) If I did it once, I can do it twice.
Thanks for listening.
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hugs
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Post by hugs on May 9, 2015 1:08:09 GMT
If Riley wants to go out on the trails and you don't feel comfortable riding him there, then take him for a walk, he doesn't care if you're on his back, only you do, shouldn't matter to anyone else either for that matter. I walk Peachie where I don't have the confidence to ride her. And when Peaches gets anxious she'll rest her nose on my arm or lean her head toward me while we walk on as usual, then she'll relax and still we walk on. It's relaxing and fun, I really look forward to those times together.
The habit of pain looks just the same as if the horse really were in pain. They don't know it won't, they're afraid it will. So break down the saddling into baby steps to see where Riley's upset starts. If you get a reaction it will be at just that point where you have a problem and you can work through it and find the cause if there is one. If it's just pissiness then repeat, repeat, repeat until it's a non issue.
Biting is pure intention, that isn't due to pain, that's a horse thinking it's okay to bully you. I would first try backing the living snot out of him, that's the easiest correction. And I don't mean a couple yards, I mean 100 ft and as fast as he can possible go. Another one is to get them to go to the right, then the left, then the right, not a circle but like a pendulum. They're kind of on their own with a circle, you want him to know that you are controlling his feet and it isn't any leeway but your way.
In these training sessions identify two maybe three things you want to accomplish, once Riley is proficient on one, drop it and add another. That way when you get what you want you can end the session on a good note and it's more clear to the horse what you're getting at. It is also helpful to work up to expecting precise responses. Don't drill, sounds like Riley is a thinker and not a dullard.
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Post by carshon on May 11, 2015 13:00:00 GMT
Excellent Advice  !! |
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dc
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Post by dc on May 26, 2015 17:50:46 GMT
Ok, so due to weather (get headaches) co-worker being diagnosed with cancer, it's really not been happening. I've been out, a groom, a sit in the field and watch the horses (stress) dealt with a very pissy horse lunging before farrier came. Well, well, didn't we learn a lesson, best he's been for the farrier since I started boarding last October. I'd like to reiterate, bucking etc while on the lunge is something extremely unusal for Riley until I got here. But he bucked, he hollered, he refused to listen....... and round and round we went. Today, good boy, lunge listening, whoaing, reversing everthing he should do, not moving in, not trying to eat. NO TRIPPING
After lunge we go into riding pen, two tries, no stand still. Go out to round pen, go to gate, he's watching me, followed nice, didn't try to eat. So turned around went back pen. Stood still, lol, like the threat of being lunged was enough. He stood once I was one, let me to my relaxing, walked off nicely, got about 10 - 15 steps at a walk, I even felt myself relax..... tried to jog, no stomping though. Again, and again. So did about 3/4s and I got off. Got mad at myself got back on, again stood still, let me do the relax again, a couple of steps. I started to let him jog, thinking "I can do this, jog until you get tired". I just couldn't, sorry guys. I got part way off, lying across the saddle and while lying across it tried to make him move. Nope, nada, didn't twitch. So, longer lunge next time. It was a short lunge, but he was behaving so well, and it's hot and humid I thought maybe......
Still...a bit of improvement for both of us, I think. At least it wasn't a step back
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Post by carshon on May 26, 2015 18:22:29 GMT
DC- don't ever apologize for staying in your comfort zone! Never - Ever! You got off and then you got back on- do you know how many people get off and do not get back on? A LOT! You went out and worked with your horse. Which is so much more than some do. Baby steps. Keep it up - until you are relaxed. He is just telling you he feels your tension. Getting off should be the hard part and he stood for you.
Good job !
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Post by horselover4life on May 26, 2015 20:50:04 GMT
Sounds to me like your Riley is returning....
So he may have his days of pissyness....don't we all?
A quick romp in the round pen and moving those feet of his... 
BUT....when you got serious he knew it, he got down to being him and behaved as you know him to do.
Pat on the back dc... 
You hit your comfort zone boundary, worked it, then got off and then got back on and pushed you just a little bit further...
There is nothing wrong with that...and Riley was there with you the entire trip!! 
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dc
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Post by dc on May 26, 2015 23:20:45 GMT
Carshon, he's never moved when I get off. But then again, he used to stand when I got on. I wanted to see if he would move off if I wasn't 'in' the saddle. Riley of old would never have moved, and he didn't this time. I tried explaining to him, if he would just walk around the pen a couple of times for a few times in a row, we'd go out. I don't think he speaks english
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dc
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Post by dc on Jun 5, 2015 11:19:44 GMT
I've been out twice in like 2 weeks. Co-worker diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Didn't even manage to complete her shifts for her last week. Manager HAD to go on holidays at same time (helping someone having surgery for cancer). So I worked 9 days in a row but when your shifts go from 9 / 1030 to 9 at night or from 9 until 6 and not getting out til close to 7 made visiting hard. Of course my problems are pretty miniscule compared to what co-worker going through. I did get out yesterday, a nice well behaved lunge no tripping, then I took the advice and went for a short walk down the road. (leading) He really liked it. I saw my gf who has known Riley since the day I got him, and I told her about his behavior, she was surprised, then asked "is he with a mixed herd now?" Well, he is, and seeing as he hasn't been with any mares in the same field since he was like 5, she felt that was contributing to it especially as it is a mare who is his biggest bud. But I see improvement. He is all about the out and about.
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Post by horselady on Jun 5, 2015 11:56:07 GMT
Sorry about your co-worker, and just stay on your comfort zone. and when you are ready push it just a little. and while doing that either sing a short song or recite a poem. out loud if you have to. it will help your breathing and help you relax, and the person who says riley is in mixed group now and could be part of his problem is correct. he will calm down after a while.
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see that face. that is what you should do when he misbehaves. 
!!
