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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 11, 2015 20:06:47 GMT
Stormy is acting different.
Friday I noticed he laid in the sun longer than usual, then he laid down again, later in the afternoon, which is unusual. I'm not sure. Maybe he does lay down twice during the day most days, but I only see him once.
He has been also standing apart from the other two. They are seldom all three standing together, but normally I see the other two will pair up with him a few times during the day. I haven't seen him close with the other horses, much at all, the last few days.
Normally, Stormy is very playful, but hasn't been the last few days.
He has a long skinned stripe along one side. It looks like a scrape. Nothing serious, but I am just listing all the things I have noticed.
This morning he had a 2" X 4" skinned spot on his back. The edges are square so it looks more like a scrape from an object rather than a bite.
I have seen him stretch a few times. I mean, I do see him stretch, but I am noticing it now. I don't know if he is really stretching more, or if I am just being paranoid.
He is yawning. He just yawned 5 times in a row. I have noticed, Diamond yawns a lot when she is feeling stressed.
He is licking and chewing more.
Chief and Stormy are both low. Diamond is lead, and Chief and Stormy have been pretty equal. They banter back and forth a little, but now Chief is clearly over Stormy. If the horses suddenly took notice of something, Stormy was always the one to investigate, but now he hangs back while Chief takes a look.
He has normal bowel sounds, as far as I can tell. He is eating just like normal, but he isn't threatening to keep his place in the trough. If someone tells him to move, he moves off, without a fuss, and that's not like him at all.
Stormy has always had a problem, with wanting to ambush Chief, and bite him hard on the butt, especially when I call them in for supper. Chief usually just hops his butt up, but didn't kick out. The other day I saw him double barrel Stormy in the chest. I guess it must have been about a week ago that he got kicked. Stormy was still threatening to bite, but not really chomping Chief, for a couple days more, but he has stopped that behavior totally now.
You all know I had to make a sudden feed change a little over a week ago. The change was, I stopped all beet pulp, (grrrr) and was changed from Safe Choice Original, to Safe Choice Maintenance. I was able to get the Original yesterday, and have started mixing it back, gradually, into their daily ration, so they won't have another abrupt change.
I don't know what else to tell you. Do I need to make an emergency call to the vet? Should I take him to the vet tomorrow? Should I give him a few more days?
Anyway, I'm gong to go out and hook up the trailer, and check the air pressure in the tires, then walk the horse lot to see if I can find what Stormy got scraped on. I will be back in a little while to see if someone has had a chance to reply.
Thank you.
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 11, 2015 20:23:28 GMT
Sorry to hear this, all I can say is you mnkw your horse better than anyone, if he's off and you don't get vet to see him you will feel guilty if anything does happen, it's hard when it's nothing obvious but you just know he's off, vet will most likely do blood works.
Keep us updated:)
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 11, 2015 21:57:31 GMT
I don't know what to think. He is just acting different. I don't know why. It could be a reaction to the change in herd dynamics, or he could have an upset stomach. I know he did get kicked really hard by Chief right in the chest. Maybe his chest is hurting.
When I was out in the lot walking around, Stormy was acing like his usual self around me. I found a small stick and picked it up. He bounced up, and tried to take it away. When I finally let him have the stick he swung it around, then tossed it in the air. I picked it up and tossed it, so he brought it back, then ran off with it. When he got tired of it, I took it away. I don't like to leave play sticks around. I am afraid he will get hurt while running with it in his mouth.
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 11, 2015 22:32:14 GMT
Lol!...ira and Isis liked to play with sticks, I have a video clip albeit not good quality of ira I think smacking him over the head with it!
If he seems ok give it a few days, I am a bit of a panic merchant when it comes to Dax and did call the vet out once and in hindsight I am sure he would have got better on his own if I'd gave it time but he's my prince and well I panicked!
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 11, 2015 23:28:37 GMT
LD I know what you mean. Stormy is what really gives meaning to my life. I tend to panic when even he even twitches wrong.
I decided that watching him was probably causing him to act abnormal, but I wanted to be able to see him better than just from the window. I went out with the pitch fork and started picking up some of the loose hay and putting it on the mulch pile. Stormy decided, I suppose, since I had taken away his stick, he wanted the pitch fork. Ha, he likes to smack the other two with sticks, jolly balls, tarps, and the like, so allowing him to get ahold of the pitch fork would have been a really bad thing. He got more and more pushy and I didn't feel entirely safe smacking him with my hand, and telling him to back, anymore, so I poked him on the nose with the handle. Just the handle. It's not sharp at all.
Stormy decided to be stupid and rear, up and come after me, walking on his hind legs, so I had to quickly, smack him hard on the nose, to convince him, that was a bad idea. Please don't think I am a horrible horse Mama, because he did this. This is the way he is, unless I work with him all the time, to keep him respectful. I haven't been working with him, so he is just being Stormy. He is just a horse you can never turn your back on.
So anyway, at this time he is acting like his normal obnoxious self, and while I was out there he pooped a bigger than normal pile. Well that was after I chased him around a little while, until I felt he was going to leave me alone so I could leave.
I worry that someone will drive by and see me chasing him with a pitch fork and turn me over to the humans society, but I would never hurt him. I have learned that if he starts acting disrespectful, I have to immediately make him move his feet. If I just try to leave, he thinks he has made me move my feet, and he has the upper hand. Then he gets closer.
I have the truck hooked up to the trailer just in case he starts acting off again, but for right now, he seems to be ok.
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Post by horselover4life on Jan 11, 2015 23:34:46 GMT
OK...we were writing/posting at the same time..
So..
What does your gut tell you?
You are noticing a difference in herd dynamics that took place at about the same time the horse took a hard kick... Since then you see marks of aggression on his body, clear body signals of stress {yawning} you see your other horses do, the rest of the herd acting or reacting differently to the horse...
Personally, the other horses distancing themselves, noticeably acting different to the horse and what you yourself see.... You've had major feed changes in a very short time frame, a kick from another horse full-on hard.... I would at the least call the vet and explain what is happening, ask their professional opinion and probably err on the side of caution and get a look-see. It may be a nothing, it may be a something...either way you see things and need some answers for peace of mind.
In the meantime I would keep the other horses away from Stormy best you can. Feed him where it is quiet, let him out where he can see but not be touched as sounds more like he is having difficulty defending himself now.... My first reaction is the horse has something cracked from the kick or a serious bone bruise that really hurts...he is very vulnerable to anything/one right now hurting him. You might also have a food reaction happening....
Horses have a sixth sense about knowing when another is not quite right....take heed of that warning that something is amiss.... Me, I would at the least be making a phone call, probably getting someone out to see the horse. I don't have the extra $$ hanging around either, but my peace of mind is worth $$$$$$$$$... jmo
Let us know how Stormy is, please over the next few days.
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 12, 2015 1:02:06 GMT
I did separate them. Even before I read your post, so I guess I guessed right on that one. I think I will just make him an appointment for tomorrow. You are right, that is money well spent, for peace of mind.
I am guessing he did have a bit of colic. It may not have been to bad, but I want that checked out, as well as his chest. I want knowing ears to listen to his gut sounds, and even if he is back to normal, I want to know exactly what I need to do and, what I need to look for, because I think, from what I have read on the forums, once a horse has had an episode of colic, they can do it again.
I am also thinking, because of his edgy attitude, he has probably been getting a little to much protein. I don't have the best hay, so I supplement. I also like to soak their feed, to give them extra water, and a little extra salt. They have all been getting 2 cups of processed feed, 1 quart of beet pulp, and 4 quarts of chopped alfalfa, and a tsp and a half of salt, soaked in a gallon of hot water, in the morning and at night. Once I can get the beet pulp I think I will start slowly adding a little more of it, to Stormys food, and gradually cutting back on his alfalfa.
I have learned my lesson to keep a couple extra bags on hand, so if the store runs out I still have my back up.
I worry because we have such wild temperature fluctuations. This last week has been awful. Monday or Tuesday, I forget which, the temp was 42 degrees at 4:00PM, at 10:00PM a cold front had moved in and he temp had dropped to 3, with a howling north wind. By 5:00AM when I got up to go to work, the temp was 12, but with a brutal south wind. My horses have protection from the wind, if they will use it, but with the temps going up and down so fast it is really hard on them. I know the cattle producers are loosing cattle right now. I try to do the best, I think I can for them, but if anyone has other ideas of how to care for them better, please let me know.
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Post by horselady on Jan 12, 2015 1:48:01 GMT
Good that you moved him to be alone. as you noticed that long two inch scrape on stormys back . well that is teeth marks from another horse. my question would be why is stormy suddenly relinquishing his head of the herd of 3?? glad you are making the decision to seek advice from vet. never sorry for spending that money to be safe. and have expert ears listen to the sounds he is making. and perhaps you should re think your adding all that water to the feed. make it soft but not soupy. and with all that beet pulp perhaps he is getting too much and his digestive system is just not digesting it properly . just a thought.
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 12, 2015 2:07:34 GMT
It was temperature fluctuations that caused mine to get mild colic:(
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 12, 2015 2:31:52 GMT
I started adding the warm water and a bit of salt last winter. A member on the other place had posted to watch out for colic, because they were expecting a 30 degree temp drop. Well last winter we had a 50 degree drop in less than 24 hours, and I was really worried. I asked how I could help my horses get through there wild fluctuations and several people suggested feed soaked feed, twice a day, and add beet pulp.
The beet pulp was hard to find, but the farm store, near me, has final started carrying it. It must be gaining popularity even here in central Kansas, because they sure seem to be out of it a lot.
All I know is, that I can get better advise from people here, than I can get from most of the local horse experts who live here. They own livestock, not 4 legged family members.
For the herd dynamics, Diamond is lead, absolutely, and she totally keeps the boys in their place. In the past in their other herds, Stormy, and Chief have always been low. I was really curious, how they were going to work their status out, and most of the time they do just fine. I think the biggest problem is, that Stormy bites. He has horrible social skills, and I think sometimes, Chief and Diamond get tired of him and knock the crap out of him. Today he came after me. He does this sometimes. He killed a possum in the pasture, and when I boarded him he got to a dog running in the pasture, and broke its hip.
I am sure he would love to have an exciting life, with a young fearless rider, and have lots of miles to run on, but he has severe arthritis in his right rear hock, from a broken leg, when he was a foal. No one else wanted him. So maybe I can't give him a wonderful excitement filled life, but I do love him and want him. I just wish he wasn't always the instigator of all kinds of herd drama.
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Post by carshon on Jan 12, 2015 14:49:40 GMT
It may be that Stormy has lost his place in the herd as #2 and is now a permanent #3. Years ago my mare Cherokee had always been #1 our herd ranged from 1-5 horses and she was always top of the line. As she got older she had to fight more to stay top of the herd. Finally in her mid- 20's she lost that place. She was very odd acting and depressed for quite awhile - she lost weight and started spending more time on her own. I finally seperated her permanently as she was just getting too beat up. Horse herds are all about hierarchy- and the placement can change.
I second having a vet out just for peace of mind but wanted to let you know that it may be herd dynamics changing.
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 12, 2015 23:19:58 GMT
I guess they didn't like to be apart, but they couldn't remove the chain, so they took the gate off the hinges, so it sort of leaned over sideways, so they could go back and forth, and be together. I didn't really like that they were stepping through the gate rails, to get back and forth, so I put it back on the hinges and left it open.
Stormy is acting fine, but I am still waiting for a call back from a different vet. I decided to change all my animals over to another clinic. I still like my old vet, but I can't ever talk to him. I like the new vet, who is practicing with him now too, but I would feel better having someone with a little more experience.
I just feel like the young grad didn't listen to me when I told her what was wrong with Mica. I told her the problem was in her belly, but she decided it was her teeth. I would have lost Mica anyway, but she didn't have to go through what she went through, if the vet would have only listened.
An hour later.
OMG I just heard back fro the other vet. I am going to start getting my feed from her. It may require blood work to see if they need something extra, but she has her own equine nutritionist, and thinks this would be the best thing to help me. She started doing this because, she was constantly hearing the same complaints from Orschlin customers, and has treated several cases of colic from feed changes, because they ran out of feed. Her prices are comparable, to what I have been paying, and I can get it locally, rather than drive out of town. YEA.
I am just to keep an eye on Stormy, and call her if he acts different in any way, and call her back tomorrow to map out the gradual feed change. She said, with this weather there is no way to absolutely prevent colic, but you can get on a feed plan, and do the best we can.
{{{{{Typing this post took me an hour because I kept having to stop.}}}}}}
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Post by horselover4life on Jan 13, 2015 0:03:17 GMT
Sounds good....
Horse vet or not, nutritionist or not....she gets her feed from them or not you use your own brain to make decisions regarding your horses and what is best for them as only you know them as you do.
Please remember to ask the critical questions of do they mix any ruminant feed where you will be now purchasing from and if they do what safeguards are in place to protect your horses from certain additives that are harmful/deadly to horses....please, please. It will also put others on notice you are aware of what is and has happened in the recent past....
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Terry
Junior Member
Central Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,466
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Post by Terry on Jan 13, 2015 0:55:19 GMT
I hadn't had a chance to post on this thread until now, but I had read it, so I stopped in tonight to see how Stormy is doing. Glad to hear he seems to be doing better. The new vet sounds great! I like that they are willing to talk to you on the phone, tell you (if appropriate) to watch and see, and are fine with you calling back tomorrow with an update, rather than insisting that they must see the horse immediately ($$$$$), whether it's really necessary or not. I hope he continues to improve, and I hope everything works out well for you with the new feed arrangement.
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 13, 2015 1:21:45 GMT
Absolutely HL4L, I thought that would be the first question I would ask. Actually I have been asking around, after Orschlins ran out of what I was feeding, and the Lewis CO-OP came up all the time. Lewis is a small town (even smaller than my town) about 20 to 30 miles south of here. Even the big important Champion Cowboy mentioned, he didn't have time to drive down to Lewis, and get feed that day.
My ((new)) Vet uses their nutritionist, and gets her feed from them. They bring her order to her, and she just charges what they charge her. The Lewis CO-OP is actually owned by Golden Plains CO-OP, which is a pretty big company so the prices are comparable, to other large corporations. So once I verify they are safe, I think this will be a good change for me.
Oh, and I asked her about the beet pulp. She said she would look into getting it, but she didn't really have an opinion on it one way or another. I have been thinking,,,, changing feed suddenly, isn't much more dangerous to my horses, than suddenly stopping a particular feed suddenly. Either way you look at it, it is a sudden feed change, which is something we all try to avoid. Now I am thinking, unless someone can give me a really good reason, to continue the beet pulp, I think I will not use it any more. I would rather not have to suddenly stop it, because Orschlins has forgotten to order more. I could always keep a few bags in reserve, to use, until the people who put in the orders, got their heads pulled out of their butts, but if it isn't necessary, I will probably stop using it, and keep my money.
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 13, 2015 1:28:27 GMT
Stormy is doing better Terry, thank you for asking. I am sorry, I didn't see your reply, before I hit send on my previous one. It's just that it takes me sooooo long to type in a reply with a cat laying on my keyboard, and I would never ask him to leave, because I just love the company.
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mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
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Post by mistersmom on Jan 13, 2015 13:22:52 GMT
I'm glad to hear Stormy is feeling better and even happier to hear you are happy with your new vet.
Yes, ask questions but it sounds like the new feed source will be reliable.
I've never fed beet pulp myself so I really don't know much about it. Why did you start feeding it to begin with? Were your horses losing weight? If you are feeding a complete feed, I don't see a reason to feed the beet pulp unless you have a hard keeper. But that's jmo.
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 13, 2015 13:25:32 GMT
The only time I fed beet pulp was in the winter and they were stalled at night but they were working hard and competing twice a week
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Terry
Junior Member
Central Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,466
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Post by Terry on Jan 13, 2015 15:21:51 GMT
I've never fed beet pulp before, so I'm not much help on that.
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 13, 2015 17:22:44 GMT
The reason I started feeding it was so many others were feeding it and seemed to like it. None of my horses are hard keepers, and they have access to a round bale 24-7. I know the quality of my hay isn't the best. It isn't poor, but with the continuing drought, the grass quality is not as good, and there are more weeds. I thought the beet pulp would help make up for the lower hay quality.
I am thinking now, because I add a processed feed, and add chopped alfalfa, I probably don't have to have the beet pulp. It isn't like my horses have to work, or anything, and even if I was riding them a lot, we only go at a walk, on flat ground. I think the benefits I gain from adding beet pulp to their diet, are minimal, especially when compared to the harm caused by making a drastic feed change, when it suddenly stops. I wonder what those poor little bacteria, who were helping digest the beet pulp are going to do now? If they can't help out with another food source, the bacteria will die, leaving my horses with upset tummies. Which is probably part of the reason Stormy was acting like he was.
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