Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572 
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Post by Lipizzan on Nov 14, 2016 16:33:04 GMT
I know most of you guys are against this kind of tool, but I just wanted to share informations and ideas.
I have been searching and reading about this type of tool and I have brought home a mechanical hackamore that I will try to use on my mare.?
Probably a question why?
I have seen a lot of negative things written and said about hackamores like they can break a nose , they are harsh, the have long shanks etc.
Well so are the bits, so are the snaffle bits, gag bits, bits with long shanks, bit with chains.
I just like the idea of pressure on the nose and chin,better than pressure on gums, tong, and face + the cold feeling of metal in the mouth. And not just that I like the idea of it, but I think my mare would like it too.
Mine has a thick layer of leather on a nose and a chin chain strap which I will both layer with some wool, so it makes it a little softer. It also has long straight shanks.
It is not soft as English fleece hackamore but I think this one is in the middle because of straight shanks and thick layer od leather+ i will put wool.
The reason I say it is because I have tried her in a LG bitless bridle.
It is a type of a bitless that also works on a nose and chin pressure, but without shanks. It works ok but I think she did not feel it enough because of lack of pressure or leverage.
If you don't know my mare she is a very hard horse, hard on mouth and hard on nose.
I tried with flexing, backing, with everything, even watched some youtube videos with exercises that would help mi with that , but those are all horses type pain, quarter, mustang, appaloosa etc, I don't say they are different than other horses, but Lipizzaners have different head shape and bone structure, not to mention the difference in temperament and character is quite big.
Don't get me wrong I ride her with loose rains, I don't pull, jenk or do any kind of that stuff, but I feel she is not happy with any kind of bit. I think I changed at leas 10 different types of bits, she will chew then, open the mouth, toss her head etc. And we checked the teeth, checked the back, nothing is wrong.
When I was riding her in that Lg bitless, she was so calm, so concentrated, like the bit was taking her attention. She would play with a bit and not paying attention to my ques.
The problem was, not enough feel to her nose, it was almost like riding on a halter and I know a well trained horse should be able to do that.
She will do amazing in fenced area, she will canter, listen on just a halter, but outside and alone. Just I don't know...
We had good and bad days, but I want to try all my option.
I ask for a support and nice suggestions.
I watched this video and I like it because it describes that people who say hackamore can break a horse nose is a bu***it, it is just a matter of good fit.
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Post by horselover4life on Nov 14, 2016 18:12:23 GMT
Lip...riding in a mechanical hackamore is no different than riding with a bit or other bitless bridle applications as far as cruel or soft and gentle.
It is and always has been and always will be the person holding on to and controlling those reins who makes a bit/hack kind and gentle or rough and hurtful.
You are a kind rider, one who is very cautious to not inflict pain but to guide and encourage using your body as a tool of communication.
If you think your mare would be responsive, and enjoy her rides more with a hack then do it.
The bottom line is you will never know unless you try it if you have found what works for her....
Let us know how she and you do......
jmo...
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Nov 14, 2016 18:27:09 GMT
Thank you. I know every horse with proper training can be riden even without anything. But she is 13 and she was started by a man who still to this day thinks that horses should feel pain to obay. And that is my father who was also using her for driving in chained bits when I was working. And you can imagine that all my work after that is pointless. I just want her and me to find a solution that we can both enjoy. If you ask me.I would be happiest if I could ride her on a rope halther and go do trails,but with her bad foundations, that is not likely to happen. I think it is a progress that I got her to walk home and that I do ride her only in snaffle. I have never used chains or shanks. But she just feels so nervous with bit. I think she relates bits with pain and hard work. Even though I ride her with soft hand. But my dad did not :/
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mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
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Post by mistersmom on Nov 14, 2016 18:36:30 GMT
Lip - you are an amazing horse person to be able to look back at your horses past and relate that to what is happening now. I think you are completely accurate with your assessment. And like HL4L says, a bit/bridle/hack is only as soft or hard as the person using it. You would not be rough with anything you do with your horses (unless necessary). So try the hack and see what she thinks of it.
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Nov 14, 2016 19:03:32 GMT
Thank you  it means a lot. I dont want to present myself as a person who will say this bit is bad,or this hack is bad. I am aware that it is not problem in my horse. It is problem in her training. And to be honest I dont know how to fix it to that extend she could be ridden with a halter alone on a trail for hours. I just want to find some tool that will help me to make her the best she can be and me with her. At this point I think bits dont work for her. |
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Post by horselady on Nov 15, 2016 1:10:26 GMT
A friend of mine adopted a horse that had issues.. go and find out he had a potion of his tongue missing because of the use of a bit/chain or what ever... any way i and her trainer suggested she use halter with 2 leads for a while.. and him being head strong that was not enough.. so on to the bitless bridle. bosal.. and now a hack.. well lo and behold the hack is wonderful. since she rides with a soft hand and slack rein her horse is finally giving to the bridle and relaxing...
so my thought is "if it works use it.." you saw the video and using the hack in a proper way should not cause her any harm..
I see now hackamores being used in jumping competitions and those horses are jumping 5-6 feet high and are under a great amount of pressure . let us know how it goes.
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Nov 15, 2016 9:09:02 GMT
That horse sounds like her. I will try to go for a ride today. It is very cold though. But I guess there will not be better days then this anymore.
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Nov 15, 2016 12:55:22 GMT
So hack is a fail, it's to strong. We move on...
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Post by horselover4life on Nov 15, 2016 16:00:26 GMT
So hack is a fail, it's to strong. We move on...
Mechanical hacks are strong because of the length of shank...longer the shank stronger the pressure applied. This is true of any bit for any discipline...
I hope all the links work correctly or you may need to copy & paste to see what I was trying to show....
So, there are other types of hacks...
A English one has a wider, softer nose padded with a shank no longer than that on a pelham bit. No bit...
Then there are hack combos which is a hack, and a bit used in combination.
Then a "flower" appearing hack with lots of holes and the combination of headstall and rein makes it stronger or gentler, poll or nose pressure...
This site goes into some good detail and shows the different styles... a lot more available than most have ever seen or read about..
myhorseforum.com/threads/types-of-hackamores-full-and-detailed-with-photos.463816/
So lip.. is she just strong and hard to turn or does she run through the bit, haul heavy on your arms or what is it she is doing?
I wonder if going to a variation of a western bosal would work?
To me that is what I try to describe below...
I have ridden recently in a Paso Fino bitless bridle....
www.pasofinohorsetack.com/
The only way I can describe looking at it is think of a thick dropped noseband look, noseband wide & thick, under jaw piece is hard wrapped band that adjusts with buckles to side rings near the back of the jawbone.
You use 2 sets of reins...one set at the "0" ring {noseband cheekpiece junction} and other rein attaches to rings that are set into the jaw band.
There are fancy names for each piece but I thought describing and showing you a picture might help...
Bottom line is with 2 reins of control you have fine control of the head and commands given without a hunk of steel in the mouth.
Now, Paso Fino are small, finer boned than your Lipizzaner horses so not sure how to figure that sizing out... largest Paso they say is 16 hands {never saw one this big!} but still a refined head and smaller muzzle I think than your Lips have...
Here is a listing for hacks, hundreds of them in many styles and many price ranges...
Maybe something in this listing you might find would help?
www.calibex.com/Of-Hackamores/shop-html?nxtg=9730a500504-6E3F374604208D53
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Nov 15, 2016 16:18:58 GMT
As always very helpful.
When I tried this hack I have , every time I put pressure on nose she would toss her head very high.
She has hard mouth and hard head. She reacts porlly to pressure. You would say a strong horse, horse that pulls . But only sometimes. Here we have not so many variations of hacks or bits in Croatia. Not to mention I dont have money to buy and try all of this. I have already spent a ton of money.
She does not like the bit,but again was tossing her head with a hack. Oh good . this horse.
I even tought maybe it is a problem with her joined pices of bits. Tryed the single bit,straight. Same thing. I really dont want to use bits with chains or long shanks.
My recent thought was to try a bit, it starts with k I dont remember the name, it is a D ring with two hols and a chain. I would remove the cain. It has a bit of levarege and a spon in middle, it is a straight bit without nutcracker effect.
I just have no money of were to buy it. So I will have to wait for a while and get back to snaffle and work with what I got.
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Post by horselover4life on Nov 15, 2016 16:45:41 GMT
You describe a Kimberwicke bit...
www.doversaddlery.com/horse-bits/vc/horse+bits-kimberwicke/
It is made with a snaffle single joint mouth or a small port solid mouth.
The rings have 2 slots in them.
Placing the rein in the slot closest to where the bit bar fixes to the ring is the least amount of leverage pressure.
Using the lower slot is more leverage.
You can also not use either slot and just attach the rein as you would to any bit you have.
The curb chain can be left loose and no pressure or tightened to {humanely} have 2 fingers between jaw and chain, and a flat chain arranged and laid against the lower jar groove.
To apply more jaw pressure, twisting of the chain along with shortening can make this bit a very, very severe bit in disguise.
This is another thought....
Stop her from throwing her head, breaking your line of contact and her evading by putting her in a tie-down or a variation of it.
You can use a standing martingale with a shorter strap length of play so she hits a barrier and can not get above the vertical, evade or break your rein contact line of hand to mouth..
She will fight herself not you...she won't fight herself for long either.
Instead of her being disrespectful of you, she disrespects herself and punishes only her.
Now, never ever ride over fences with a head restriction like this as she would not be able to balance and carry her body but on the flat....well, more barrel racers and calf ropers ride with this kind of equipment as a "head-restriction" than any else I've seen.
I know in western events I have been told this helps with controlling the horses balance...IDK.
I just know I see the best in the world riding in such and nothing bad comes of their horses...
just another idea....
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Nov 15, 2016 17:05:39 GMT
You have a very good points. And I enjoy reading your posts. I do use a martingale but a running one. Hmm. You gave me a lot to think about.
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mingiz
Junior Member
Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 3,320
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Post by mingiz on Dec 1, 2016 2:22:41 GMT
I rode one of my horses in a mechanical hackamore. He hated a bit. As others said as long as your hands are soft it will work. I could do anything with him I wanted to. But at one point he learned to flip it up and it caused the shank to lock in an upward motion. Which in turn you loss that side. He was smart. But I fixed that with a piece of leather shoe string and tied off both shanks to his chin strap. Hence he couldn't flip them up anymore. All you can do is try it. You would have to be VERY heavy handed to break their nose. That then would be abuse...
If the horse you want to use this on doesn't like pressure then a Mechanical hack won't work. The Kimberwicke might work better.
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on Dec 1, 2016 13:41:19 GMT
Thanks, we tried it, didn't work. Back to snaffle. So far so good. My best tool for now is lot of exercise. |
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it means a lot. I dont want to present myself as a person who will say this bit is bad,or this hack is bad. I am aware that it is not problem in my horse. It is problem in her training. And to be honest I dont know how to fix it to that extend she could be ridden with a halter alone on a trail for hours. I just want to find some tool that will help me to make her the best she can be and me with her. At this point I think bits dont work for her. 
