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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 12, 2015 16:44:16 GMT
This is some old video footage I thought I'd lost, excuse quality as they did not want me filming so I was kind of sneak filming plus a stinky scruffy barn cat kept jumping on me and I was terrified of getting cat scratch fever lol!
I won't say too much right now about this video but would be interested to hear what you all think.....
1. How long had this unbroke horse been in training with this trainer when this video was taken
2. Exactly what the trainer is trying to achieve, especially in regards to the sudden stop and turns
3. Your general overall opinion of both horse and trainer
Thanks so much
Some of you will be aware of who this may be, I would appreciate no trainer names!
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mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
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Post by mistersmom on Jan 12, 2015 17:13:19 GMT
video?
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 12, 2015 19:28:55 GMT
Oops! computer has error code, I have to convert it to a different file type, doing it now, might take a while though as it's a bit long, please ignore my babbling, I was not saying what I wanted to to the lady that was talking to me as I am a wimp!
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 13, 2015 0:19:46 GMT
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Terry
Junior Member
Central Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,466
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Post by Terry on Jan 13, 2015 0:40:57 GMT
I'm looking forward to seeing the video...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 18:20:13 GMT
Ditto, I also look forward to seeing the video. Darn computers! lol
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 13, 2015 20:45:34 GMT
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 21:21:24 GMT
Ok, what I got from that is:
1) My guess would be 45-60 days. The horse seems to have some balance, and is comfortable-ish with the saddle. Not super balanced at the canter yet though, and rushes that transition (this is partially the lunger's fault - see below)
2) Maybe trying to get the horse to pay attention and respond better to body cues? IMO going about this in much the wrong way if this is the goal, as the horse seems somewhat insecure / flighty and is already paying attention.
3) My first thought was "What is with all the yanking!?" The horse does not appear to be leaning or trying to take off, so why yank?
The go forward cue seems unnecessarily harsh as the horse demonstrates a willingness to go forward as it is and does not seem sticky or balky. This causes the horse to rush and works the horse up.
Why the turn the horse to the outside? (This may be ignorance on my part, never seen it done before, so I'm not sure if this is conventional. I have always been taught to turn the horse to the inside ie. butt away from you)
Why is the line so long? If you are trying to get the horse to pay attention, the this hinders your purposed more than it serves it, and the person does not really appear to have a good grasp on lunging.
The lunger 'wanders' and does not stay in the same general area. Not sure if this is inexperience or...?
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 13, 2015 23:08:27 GMT
Ok here we go **JMO!!!! I understand why he had the horse turn away, other wise the long lines would have gotten wrapped around the horse.
He didn't appear to ask the horse to make a turn, but demanded with a hard yank. A horse can only be as soft as you treat it. If they are only trained with sudden jerking, they will only learn to brace into the pressure, rather that give to soft pressure.
I don't know why he was flipping the line to get the horse to move faster. Really **JMO, but I feel if the horse is ready to be long lined with a saddle he needs to have already learned to move off voice commands and body language. Yes the stirrups need to be flopped around, so the horse gets used to the movement, I am just not sure that is the correct way to do that.
That horse seemed to me to be a very smart horse, because he was understanding what the trainer wanted, even though he was **in my opinion, being to rough, especially on his mouth.
Oh and how long had this horse been in training. My guess would be his first day. JMO again. Not long enough for that kind crap. Please excuse my language.
**I have been told my opinion is wrong before, and I am to easy on my horses.
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Terry
Junior Member
Central Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,466
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Post by Terry on Jan 14, 2015 1:03:30 GMT
1) I don't know how long this unbroken horse had been in training with this trainer, but I'm going to guess, since it is saddled and seems to understand what's supposed to be happening (to an extent), roughly 2 weeks to 30 days. ??
2) What is the trainer trying to achieve with the stops and turns - I assume the trainer is working on respect and control.
3) My general overall opinion - this trainer seems to have very harsh hands. I see no reason for the SUDDEN stops and the hard yanks on the lines. By the time the horse is able to be lunged with a saddle on, and be expected to understand stops, turns, and speed changes on the line, the trainer should be able to ask for those softly and get a nice response from the horse. This horse/trainer combo seemed unable to control speeds, the horse was being told harshly everything the trainer wanted, instead of being asked gently.
Overall, I was not impressed, but that's just my opinion.
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 14, 2015 1:10:34 GMT
Oh my. I figured out who that trainer is. That's Dick, right LD?
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Post by horselover4life on Jan 14, 2015 1:49:28 GMT
OK...DID NOT read anyone's opinion but wrote, will post then go back and read others thoughts.
First off...he has had that horse "in-training" for more than a month, sadly. The horse is actually a nice animal, appears afraid though of the human nut on the rope attached to him. I watched him jerk and pull twice and shut off the video, enough seen by me to know I would not like this "human" working with my horse and jerking him as such... I had no sound on so no idea if voice was used for cuing the horse or just jerking off balance and dagerously positioning his spin to put human in jeopardy if that horse ever retaliated with a backlash kicking fest... beside the lunge line extremely long for the animal to become entrapped on, hence his spin to the outside in a unsafe manner...
I understand the establishment not wanting you to video this...would you want your technique known about and put out there....not like this you don't if you are smart and want clients... I have no idea of who this is but when you tell us and how long he had this unbroken and unhandled horse under his care....the horse responds very quickly to the harsh treatment applied by the human. A truly unbroke horse doesn't learn that that fast to spin and run the other direction with a saddle on...this was not a horse being trained but a horse being broke as in spirit broke and afraid.....he reacts in fear imo, not in wanting to do for the human.The animal was not taught how to react to a request... The animal was taught to be reactive and afraid...how sad.
OK, so I want a name so I not ever use or buy a horse he trained.... I don't care what or who it is....
Now posting, then reading others responses and then if I missed or screwed up my "seeing" I will make amends in my post to the bottom in blue print......
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 14, 2015 13:11:57 GMT
Ok, what I got from that is: 1) My guess would be 45-60 days. The horse seems to have some balance, and is comfortable-ish with the saddle. Not super balanced at the canter yet though, and rushes that transition (this is partially the lunger's fault - see below) 2) Maybe trying to get the horse to pay attention and respond better to body cues? IMO going about this in much the wrong way if this is the goal, as the horse seems somewhat insecure / flighty and is already paying attention. 3) My first thought was "What is with all the yanking!?" The horse does not appear to be leaning or trying to take off, so why yank? The go forward cue seems unnecessarily harsh as the horse demonstrates a willingness to go forward as it is and does not seem sticky or balky. This causes the horse to rush and works the horse up. Why the turn the horse to the outside? (This may be ignorance on my part, never seen it done before, so I'm not sure if this is conventional. I have always been taught to turn the horse to the inside ie. butt away from you) Why is the line so long? If you are trying to get the horse to pay attention, the this hinders your purposed more than it serves it, and the person does not really appear to have a good grasp on lunging. The lunger 'wanders' and does not stay in the same general area. Not sure if this is inexperience or...? He had been with this trainer for almost 2 months so you were pretty close BUT he had been sacked out, bucked out, bitted up and everything had been done other than him actually being sat on, he had been lain across on both sides just not mounted as he was a reactive horse and hubby was worried he would do something. This trainer has over 40 years experience. Horse was pulled from trainers the next day due to numerous bleeding galls and mouth sores, saddle did not fit correctly, bit was way too big, trainer said horse had poor withers, weird as at the start he said horse had good withers, withers had disappeared. He had had a rider on around the 30 day mark, but 'something happened' still not sure what as was never told so they stopped riding him and started long reining him to ahem fix him. On return home took 8 months for galls and pressure sores to heal, started training again, horse was worse than before it went to the trainer, took weeks before accepted a saddle and bit calmly, osteopath came out and got his withers back, said horse had obviously reared up and over and damaged poll and withers then been trained wih a tie down and due to over compensation for being worked like this wither had collapsed, horse improved but still unrideable, I did find out later that trainer had broken ribs around the time this horse was there so I'm assuming he caused them! Horse went to another trainer who was riding him the second week and aside from the first weeks ground work had no problems, came back after 6 weeks and was rideable but still too reactive for me and after a year or so I decided to re home him, I gave him away to a relative of a client who is now a friend althought I spent close to $4000 on training, they are all big heavy riders and aside from one try he gave them he generally behaves:) Im sure you have all guessed by now this is Isis, this is the trainer who was being defended on the other forum, I will not name him as I took a lot of flak for slagging him off although I didn't even name him there either, if anyone wants to know who to avoid pm me, I just wanted to show everyone. A member of HT went to work for this trainer even though she knew about what happened to Isis, thought I lied, she lasted not even a week and I remember her saying what happened to Isis was par for the course. I still feel bad for what I put him through with this guy:(
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 14, 2015 13:16:34 GMT
Ok here we go **JMO!!!! I understand why he had the horse turn away, other wise the long lines would have gotten wrapped around the horse.
He didn't appear to ask the horse to make a turn, but demanded with a hard yank. A horse can only be as soft as you treat it. If they are only trained with sudden jerking, they will only learn to brace into the pressure, rather that give to soft pressure.
I don't know why he was flipping the line to get the horse to move faster. Really **JMO, but I feel if the horse is ready to be long lined with a saddle he needs to have already learned to move off voice commands and body language. Yes the stirrups need to be flopped around, so the horse gets used to the movement, I am just not sure that is the correct way to do that.
That horse seemed to me to be a very smart horse, because he was understanding what the trainer wanted, even though he was **in my opinion, being to rough, especially on his mouth.
Oh and how long had this horse been in training. My guess would be his first day. JMO again. Not long enough for that kind crap. Please excuse my language.
**I have been told my opinion is wrong before, and I am to easy on my horses.
His mouth was cut and bleeding, not sure if it was the fact the bit was about 2 inches too thick or his heavy hands, yes I was shocked at how hard his cues were, this is a very responsive horse. Im not sure why he was flipping the lines so hard, this is a forward responsive horse, he is reactive, I thought the whole point was to keep things calm. Trainer came highly recommended from the vet, he's been training for over 40 years. Horse had been in training with this guy for way more than one day(see above reply)and was ready to ride more or less when he went! I guess in hindsight trainer was rough with him as he broke his ribs?!
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 14, 2015 13:17:53 GMT
1) I don't know how long this unbroken horse had been in training with this trainer, but I'm going to guess, since it is saddled and seems to understand what's supposed to be happening (to an extent), roughly 2 weeks to 30 days. ??
2) What is the trainer trying to achieve with the stops and turns - I assume the trainer is working on respect and control.
3) My general overall opinion - this trainer seems to have very harsh hands. I see no reason for the SUDDEN stops and the hard yanks on the lines. By the time the horse is able to be lunged with a saddle on, and be expected to understand stops, turns, and speed changes on the line, the trainer should be able to ask for those softly and get a nice response from the horse. This horse/trainer combo seemed unable to control speeds, the horse was being told harshly everything the trainer wanted, instead of being asked gently.
Overall, I was not impressed, but that's just my opinion. So good to hear no ones overly impressed, for years I've wondered if I was wrong!
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 14, 2015 13:26:10 GMT
OK...DID NOT read anyone's opinion but wrote, will post then go back and read others thoughts.
First off...he has had that horse "in-training" for more than a month, sadly. The horse is actually a nice animal, appears afraid though of the human nut on the rope attached to him. I watched him jerk and pull twice and shut off the video, enough seen by me to know I would not like this "human" working with my horse and jerking him as such... I had no sound on so no idea if voice was used for cuing the horse or just jerking off balance and dagerously positioning his spin to put human in jeopardy if that horse ever retaliated with a backlash kicking fest... beside the lunge line extremely long for the animal to become entrapped on, hence his spin to the outside in a unsafe manner...
I understand the establishment not wanting you to video this...would you want your technique known about and put out there....not like this you don't if you are smart and want clients... I have no idea of who this is but when you tell us and how long he had this unbroken and unhandled horse under his care....the horse responds very quickly to the harsh treatment applied by the human. A truly unbroke horse doesn't learn that that fast to spin and run the other direction with a saddle on...this was not a horse being trained but a horse being broke as in spirit broke and afraid.....he reacts in fear imo, not in wanting to do for the human.The animal was not taught how to react to a request... The animal was taught to be reactive and afraid...how sad.
OK, so I want a name so I not ever use or buy a horse he trained.... I don't care what or who it is....
Now posting, then reading others responses and then if I missed or screwed up my "seeing" I will make amends in my post to the bottom in blue print......
Again, glad you agreed on his treatment of the horse, there were no voice cues from him, horse was already reactive but this training made him worse:( I was so shocked and disappointed by the fact he didn't even ride him and the various physical issues I found on horse that I'm afraid I didn't even ask any questions as to what and why he was doing what he was doing, my mind was spinning and after posting on HT about him but saying a friends horse I felt better as everyine said pull him until a few people realised it was my horse then stupidly posted trainers name(there was no video then)then started attacking me and saying what a wonderful trainer he was or is, local people of course. It was a horrible situation that I learned a lot from, I was a wimp and said nothing, now I would, trainer got to hear about my bitching(even though I didn't mention him)and contacted me by email, I paid my last mknths money and they brought him home. Trainer is based in Edmonton, Alberta, anyone wants a name can PM me :)
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Post by horselover4life on Jan 14, 2015 14:47:53 GMT
I am hoping he not "train" here in Florida too....
This was your boy? I'm so sorry....scars were left in the training aspect as fear was instilled not praise for doing it right. What motivation is there for the animal to comply and try hard when the treatment is as it was....
Your horse may been reactive reactive, but to me that training only increased his reaction and intensity of that reaction.... where was motivation to work and figure it out as a team when he was so fearful from chase, chase, chase and yank, yank, and more yank him right off balance... I'm actually glad you did not get video of the first ride astride....I bet you it was not pretty! You would of been horrified!
I am not a "trainer" but have watched quite a few start a horse...no one did I ever see do this. There was kindness, praise, redirecting and getting tough when needed, but not hurtful or harmful actions taking place that would frighten, confuse or work in such a manner with the animal they could get caught up in a lunge line and seriously hurt them or that trainer...that is just dumb imo!
I have seen a horse change direction but they had a lunging caveson on with line attached to the center nose "d", line collected and held up off the ground so no legs caught in it, then to proceed off in the other direction with voice, body language signals or "whip" guiding the horses motion... They also turned to the inside for directional change in a controlled manner, the line was controlled off their nose, not dragging the ground behind, pulled tight with bulging and bounding near out of control then so severely yanked it took the horse off balance, teaching nothing. This757724 is not helpful.... he deserved a good swift kick in the pants, the trainer that is, from your horse. I imagine he encountered this when your boy was backed by him... x_xand well deserved it was!
Sorry, ld, it makes me mad to see what your boy had to endure. It was wrong and left a lot of damage behind for another to have to heal and re-train correctly if they could. I bet it left behind a horse to this day that would rather run away than stay and figure it out with you, trusting, with firm guidance and praise for trying to get it right....
Enough from me. I will try to keep quiet and my opinion to myself.... I still see red from the small amount I saw....
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 14, 2015 17:13:27 GMT
Ok I just wanted to say I really don't know trainer is. Sorry for any confusion I caused.
The reason I called him Dick, is because of what LD said about men in another thread, stating "men are dicks" with which I couldn't agree more, especially with this man. If fact, if his name is Dick, I would like to commend his Mother, for being so insightful, and naming him so appropriately. Hmmmm, no doubt named after his Father.
His Mother, poor dear, had to name him Dick because, Heavy Handed Cruel Stupid A$$ Ignorant Jerk wouldn't fit on the line. (see the line is to short)
Again JMO!!!!
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Post by lorddaxter on Jan 14, 2015 17:30:20 GMT
Thanks guys, for a long time I've doubted myself:)
I did see him ridden once, it was in an outdoor arena with very very deep shavings, there was a girl on him, this trainer was in the middle, horse was very upset, trainer was doing all the work turning him using his body language, rider was just a passenger with trainer shouting at her all the time, I felt bad for her, it wasn't nice to watch and again I could not see how this training was really training.
I got to ride him once there, this involved us in a small circular pen as in just enough to walk maybe a 5 meters circle, trainer in middle again with me on top as passenger and horse reacting scared of every move he made, he also hobbled him until I got on.
I am glad this is all in the past now but just wanted to have it recorded somewhere where I won't get abused and called a liar:)
I have told many people now not to use this trainer.
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Post by diamondgirl on Jan 14, 2015 18:32:57 GMT
This is so sad. Not only was your horse abused by that horrible man, but you were too, both directly, and indirectly by others, on another forum. I don't understand how anyone could justify that kind of training. Now that you have explained the situation, I can see how the "trainer" was taking out his aggregation on your horse. He was mad because his training method had failed, and wanted to punish Isis because he (the trainer) had failed.
I only hope that people wise up and stop using him. Then he can go out and get a job that is more suited for him, like defusing live bombs. Ha,,, be heavy handed with that job. Well only once.
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