|
|
Post by abpalis on May 10, 2015 5:17:06 GMT
Fox is becoming a rather challenging horse to work with. She's smart as can be but that might be part of the problem. She's sensitive and reactive and it makes her distracted and just act like a plain idiot sometimes. Some things that should scare the heck out of her like a huge ball or walking on a tarp or loud noises don't phase her. But heaven forbid I slap the saddle stirrup or swing her saddle pad up on her and she gets jumpy. The other day she pulled back on the tie rail three times while I was brushing her and once just about took out Prince tied up next to her. I finally had enough and untied her and gave one sharp jerk on the lead shank to grab her attention and she blew up. She went flying backwards so fast she fell on her ass and toppled over. I put her in the round pen after thinking maybe I'll just burn some energy off her, took only 2 minutes of tail straight up and redicuously loud snorting and running with short strides before she chilled out (which tells me it's not just pent up energy) I've tried doing loads of groundwork with her and she just doesn't react to it like most horses do. If I push her off and out of my space she acts like I'm some psycho getting ready to beat her. Some of these habits where there before the trainer I sent her to so I don't think it's abuse. Before I got her she hadn't been worked with much at all. She's in a pen by herself but completely herd bound to the horses near her. She gets upset when the horses in the field nearby go out to the other side of their pasture. And if I take Prince out for a ride who's pen is next to hers she'll run her pen til she can barely breath. I think she has a major lack of confidence but I've been considering sending her to a feedlot/cattle operation for a month thinking maybe having a job every day will get her head in the game. Any thoughts? I'm so cautious now about sending her anywhere, I don't want to waste my money or come back with a sick horse.
|
|
|
|
Post by horselover4life on May 10, 2015 11:43:27 GMT
She is a mare, with mare sensitivity and oddities only a mare sometimes has. Good excuse.....
Now the truth...
Hard work, day after day might help. It will certainly see her fit.
She will be tired and not have the excessive energy to behave as such, she also will not be tolerated to behave as such.
Feedlots I know about are firm in their handling of horses but not cruel to them.
They are well fed, taken care of but no sissy, pansy-ass nonsense is accepted.
"Feedlots" I refer to make a horse into a horse by exposing them to anything that crosses their path, they, the horse learns to deal with it.
By me, the feedlots are on the working ranches... there is a lot to be exposed to on a working ranch.
The horses are ridden for hours a day by experienced cowboys who also train and break their young stock to be working ranch horses....
They work the cattle doing everything imaginable you would use a horse for.
By the time your horse comes home in 30 days...you either have a really good mount or you were called long before to get the horse home.
One of the best rides I ever had was on a horse who did feedlot work here....rock steady pleasure to ride through anything!!
Check carefully into the place you would send Fox to....as in anything else horse, some places will be better than others.
smileys-home-474322 .... just my thoughts on it.
|
|
|
|
Post by horselady on May 10, 2015 11:46:36 GMT
I have read your post and my question is. do you know these people and have you seen how they work and ride the horses.?? will they be patient or will they smack or whack her around for her behavior if she should blow up. ?? are you able to go their and watch them ride and work her .? and do you know anyone else that has taken a horse there to get their insight as to how their horse was and how it turned out.??
|
|
mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749 
|
Post by mistersmom on May 10, 2015 14:46:08 GMT
Another thing to think about - yes, she might get better at a feedlot by being worked hard 7 days a week. But what about when she comes back home and isn't worked like that? I see a chance that she would just revert to the way she is now. Not that that would definitely happen, but just something to think about.
Have you checked her eyesight?
|
|
|
|
Post by abpalis on May 10, 2015 16:40:31 GMT
Unfortunately the place I'm looking at to send her is the only one taking horses right now that I can find. They are a family run cattle operation rather than a feedlot. But they are too far for me to go and just take a look. So I'm not quite sure about sending her just for the reason I have no reference or anything about this place.
The chiro checked her eyesight about 2 weeks ago.
|
|
hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
|
Post by hugs on May 10, 2015 17:53:49 GMT
At risk of reiterating too much of what I've been through with Peaches over the last 10 years and these past 10 months in particular, there is a real challenge for me to be a leader for Peaches as a partner and not through intimidation. It is about leadership and trust, you can have one without the other and in varying degrees. In the past 10 months I've hired two trainers; they had leadership skills and used intimidation so the trust was lacking and really is that leadership anyway? They were about getting her to do a something but not where she had any say in the matter. I've been spending the last month or so regaining the trust and leadership I had from before.
Next Thursday I hope to have more to say but given everything I think I need to be more on task with my leadership at all moments to catch those blowups right before they happen instead of reacting to them. I need to be aware of what happens before Peaches is aware of a loss of leadership.
Example. Lunging to "wear them out" or to "teach them whose boss" doesn't allow a thinking horse any say in the matter, it might look like leadership but there is no trust. Yesterday Peaches and I played the circling game but as a figure 8 around two plastic thingies. My job was to figure out how to do that by standing in one place. My hands were relaxed by my side after I showed her what pattern I wanted. I used solely a kissing sound if she stopped. The next time we'll work on being more precise in our pattern. I believe that stopping her in the pattern when she is doing it how I want her to do it and praising her gets progress quicker and easier than waiting until she makes a mistake (increases gait or goes off pattern) and correcting her.
So now, how does that apply to a feedlot? I think that to the extent the person using your horse is a "making her do it" and correcting bad behavior might not produce the partner that you really want if you don't ride her like they do in a feedlot. I think you have a challenging horse for many reasons and you are simply not as far in her training a you'd like to be.
Goodness knows I'm feeling pretty despondent about Peaches for the same reason, but what else is there but to keep trying? Unless the trainer coming next week can really help me figure this out I'm going to send Peaches back home. Gerald wants me to buy a gelding babysitter, but do I have the leadership skills to keep his level of training? How much is it me and how much is it Peaches?
|
|
|
|
Post by carshon on May 11, 2015 16:56:28 GMT
Being the owner of a horse that was abused I would say that Fox is suffering from issues and memories that happened at the past trainers. From your previous posts it does not sound like this is how she was before. I would focus more on reshaping those memories than just assuming it is lack of work making her flighty. Sensitive horses can react to things we cannot see - it sounds like Fox is a smart sensitive mare that may have been pushed too far at the last trainers and now she is flighty and unsure. A feedlot may juts put her over the edge.
Having a horse pull back is frustrating and dangerous but you can tie her by wrapping your lead around the post and not tieing her tight. You may never figure out the trigger for some of her behaviour but you can create new more positive memories for her.
Good Luck with her - she is beautiful!
|
|
mingiz
Junior Member
Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 3,320
|
Post by mingiz on May 11, 2015 17:09:13 GMT
Go back to desensitizing her first and see if that will get the jitters out. You need to get her mind back on you. it sounds like she has been abused somewhere along the line and is having flash backs. Rawhide was beaten while under saddle and when I first got him (5yro) if you moved your hand out away under saddle he got western. Any quick movements around him he fell apart. If you just touched him he would flinch. I ended up sending him to a trainer for 30days. We both agreed he was beaten under saddle. She gave him 30 days of gentle ground work and it made a world of difference. He still to this day is leary when you move fast around him but he doesn't fall apart like he use to. He has turned into a good trail horse. jmo
|
|
nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
|
Post by nhg on May 11, 2015 19:56:48 GMT
I'd be very surprised if she was abused and it's too easy to jump to that conclusion. Her previous owner is very nice and Fox was at a training barn. Unfortunately, the owner didn't seem to put a good foundation on her and liked to run her in a field. Stupid. Never make a young horse go fast, teach them control and calmness first. Horses already know how to go fast. We're seeing a similar situation with another young horse where we board. The owner likes barrel racing and keeps doing that with her and the horse is a nut. The owner can't figure out why she has a horse that won't do a nice slow lope and has her head in the air all the time. She's also not very responsive to cues because the owner is all over the place being a newer rider herself and the horse has had to learn to ignore the owner. I don't know what Fox's issue is but she comes across to me from what Heather tells me as a horse that needs to start over again with the basics. As for her reactivity, I don't know if it's just a personality flaw or what but when she gets in trouble and Heather is firm with her she smartens right up. If that wasn't the case and she even got worse then I might lean towards past abuse but the fact that she can be really good if she gets in trouble means she can control her emotions herself.
|
|
|
|
Post by abpalis on May 12, 2015 2:59:51 GMT
It doesn't seem to be abuse, when I got her she was barely broke and came from a young woman who didn't have time for her and was moving to the states. The guy I sent her to didn't do this that's for sure, he'd have to have handled her... lol
Tried desensitizing last night, got nothing. No spook, no jump, slapped my hoodie all over her, tied a plastic bag to her halter and nothing. She was nice and quiet to ride then because I didn't work her hard I put her in the round pen thinking I'd try a bit of ground work again and she tore around the round pen like a maniac for 2 minutes tail straight up and snorting as usual then calmed down and I had to actually make her keep moving. It's a game. She likes it. But the question is how do I make the game not so fun.
|
|
|
|
Post by horselady on May 12, 2015 11:42:35 GMT
I would not allow her back into the round pen if she is going to act like that. if she does great ground work with you and rides quiet than make your sessions short. do not get to the point of her blowing up. as for cross tying her. and does she associate the round pen with punishment from the trainer that did not train her?
i have a 3rd level dressage horse that i can not tie i just leave the rope drapped around the tie ring and he moves around not feeling the tension and is fine. but i do not let him stay on for long. and his past history was a horrible pull back and rollover. when taken to shows they used to put him in the trailer or a stall. now he is a pasture ornament.
as for your mare, time and you need to think of things for her to do that are good positive. and you are doing it.
|
|
nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
|
Post by nhg on May 13, 2015 0:07:13 GMT
A trainer Heather knows is going to be working with her at the stable where we board. She's never cross tied. We don't believe in it and there's no place to do it out there. The good news is that this way she can watch her being ridden by him. And she won't get ringworm, ha ha.
|
|
mistersmom
Junior Member
Abita Springs, LA
Posts: 3,749
|
Post by mistersmom on May 13, 2015 0:17:08 GMT
That's great news! I look forward to hearing about all the progress they will be making.
|
|
hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
|
Post by hugs on May 13, 2015 3:11:08 GMT
Something I've learned over the years; "That which we resist, persists".
If I try to keep Peaches calm and not allow her to run like a nut case in the arena, she'll have the hardest time getting her body to do what I'm asking her to do. So for now I give her the space to burn off her nervous energy. Once she does she's easier to deal with to do quiet things. Perhaps over time if I don't try to suppress her, she'll find that she doesn't need to jazz herself up. I think it's a maturity thing and a stage in her training. What I do know is that when I give her the space to do what I want rather than try to make her do it, she comes around sooner.
|
|
|
|
Post by abpalis on May 13, 2015 3:16:46 GMT
She seems to actually think the round pen is a fun place to act like a naughty yearling rather than a punishment.
She wouldn't let me catch her tonight though, had to rope her finally. She rode nice in the arena until I took her in the field and when the other horses started calling she lost it. I tuned her in pretty good and I think she's figured out to pay attention to me and not them now. But then I took her inside and tied her while I untacked her and brushed her out. She started pulling back on the tie rail again. Finally cracked her in the rear with a crop and she smartened up. Left her tied for a bit while I rode Prince, came back and while he ate his feed I took her out to her pen where she began to rear up at me over and over. I swapped her halter for a nerve halter and did some ground work and gave the halter a yank when she reared, she finally stopped but she's now pretty pissed at me. It's like a teenage rebellion in a horse. Going to go back to basics for a bit I think and start right from the ground up. The trainer starts in June so we'll see what he says. I hate mares....
|
|
Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
|
Post by Lipizzan on May 13, 2015 9:15:08 GMT
Oh Gosh. I have 3 mares that are working horses(riding-driving), all different personalities, one of them is similar to Fox. I don't think Fox is like that because she is a mare, I think she is like that because she is trying to overpower you. She is trying to take the lead and be in charge.
Not letting you catch her, pulling back,rearing up...are my red flag signals.
She definitely lack respect for you.
My suggestion would be work her ass up until she gets you are the "alfa", you are the leader and "chief mare" when you say enough, it is enough.
My suggestion(not saying it is right thing to do) is, put her in a round pen, take a lunging stick and with a lot of attitude go after her and make her circle, one way and another, act like a angry mare trying to chase off a boring yearling in a herd.
After few circles both ways, turn your back to her, if she comes , don't look at her eyes, just scratch her on her wither or head.
If she starts to make noises, look other way, try to walk away, anything that would be "disrespectful" send her away again, do the same thing, until she is ready to come to you calmly and be calm until you finish and reword her. It helped me a lot with one of my mares, that way you can teach horse respect.
They don't understand human language, you have to speak "horse body language" behave like a herd leader to earn respect, so she can trust your guidance.
|
|
|
|
Post by 1fatmule on May 13, 2015 20:00:05 GMT
Our TWH mare Hannah had been broke to ride as a 3 yr old in a round pen only, then left sit for 3 year's.
|
|
|
|
Post by 1fatmule on May 13, 2015 20:08:57 GMT
Sorry, UPS is here,to be continued!
|
|
nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
|
Post by nhg on May 13, 2015 21:22:35 GMT
Lip, good advice and Heather has been doing that. The problem is that Fox will never give in. And she can run all day until she's dripping sweat and still keeps going. She'll stop and lick her lips but she'll never turn and face or submit. She's a tough little nut.
As far as mares go, with wild horses the stallion is not the boss. There is always a boss mare that disciplines the young horses and tunes everybody else in. Sometimes we tune our horses in by using the 'mad mare face', not the 'mad stud face'. Geldings can be jerks, too, but I've rarely seen geldings do crap like try to bite another horse going by or make faces at it or try to kick a horse that's behind them. I've seen plenty of mares pull that, though. Heather and I were going over all the horses we've known from various barns over the years and 9 times out of 10 if it had snottiness issues it was a mare. You see a wide variety of horses when you board. And owners. One of the worst horses was a mare that kept wrecking board fences by kicking at the horses in the next paddock. She was awful to other horses, scary to be around when she was inside and a horrible ride because she was unpredictable. She was like a cat, everything was cool and suddenly she'd turn on her rider. She was a warmblood and was huge and she bucked when she was in the mood to suddenly and without warning. They were trying to make her a jumping horse but she couldn't be trusted. Another one was twenty five years old and the owner didn't ride anymore but couldn't find her a home for kids to ride her because she was still such a jerk. I could go on and on but those are the stand outs in my mind. |
|
hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
|
Post by hugs on May 14, 2015 3:19:26 GMT
All that you're saying makes so much sense!
Lipizzan's way of acting like a lead mare using horse body language and attitude; you don't get to come near me until you're acting like you deserve it!
And then Northern's saying how mares are more likely to pull dominance games than geldings. Well if it's about lead mares, then it would make more sense that mares would be more likely to be driven to lead!
And here's another piece that pulls "lead mare" and "dominance" together; survival of the fittest! So the mare who is least likely to be dominated, most likely to never-say-die-never-say-quit is the mare who is most likely to chase the other mares away from the stallion of her choice and raise offspring successfully. Thereby maintaining the dominance trait.
So Fox and Peaches would most likely be the fittest mares!
I don't know if you said this about Fox but Peaches is more of a loner. That's not to say she hasn't had buddy sweet issues but for instance when I took her away from the herd, Penny and Ziggy didn't miss her at all! There is something about that which fits the profile I think, but then it's just one example and therefore anecdotal.
|
|
