hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 8, 2014 21:02:14 GMT
What "holes" do you notice most often?
Which are the ones that are the most difficult to fill?
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nhg
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Post by nhg on Nov 8, 2014 22:58:51 GMT
I'd say the most common is people not getting the horse to learn to not overreact to new situations or stimuli. Not helping the horse to learn to calm itself in a new situation. I think a huge mistake made by many people is to introduce new things to a horse and be too careful about it. When someone is carefully introducing something new to a horse the horse will take the cue that it's scary if the person is hesitant or slowly introduces things or acts like the horse should be concerned. I don't want to scare a horse by pushing it too fast but I want the horse to deal with new things with curiosity, not fear.
I'm not good at getting my points across and get too wordy so I'll give a couple of examples.
My daughter has her new young horse who hasn't had much riding before she got her and the riding she did get was a lot of running. Idiot previous owner, but anyway. The mare is a little reactive but doesn't freak out or anything, just makes a bit of a fuss. H goes to put the saddle pad on her last night and she starts fussing and moving around like she's scared to have it put on. So H starts putting it on and taking it off and bumping it against her sides and legs and putting it on her head and anything she can think of until the horse decides its not worth it anymore and there's no danger in it. But, H does not carefully let her sniff it or slowly put it on her or anything like that, she just does what she did quietly and acted like she's a horse that is already fine with it.
They then go in the arena. Someone has had the jumps out and put them back differently. Her horse notices this as they go by and snorts and tries to avoid the area. H sees what she's upset about so makes her go as close as possible to what's bothering her. She does this calmly and quietly but isn't hesitant. If the horse had made a huge fuss she might have gotten off and made her go near it that way but the horse decided it wasn't that big of a deal and started sniffing the jumps right away. But she still was going to eyeball them whenever they walked by so H started making her move forward or do circles when they got close. Her horse quickly decided that the jumps were okay.
It's basically breaking the cycle of fear and teaching them how to snap out of it on their own. Making the horse deal with things itself and not turn small things into scary encounters. The horse needs to be able to tell itself that it's safe or we have to spend every minute riding looking ahead for things that might scare it and try to circumvent the situation. |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 10, 2014 1:31:53 GMT
You explain things just fine and your examples are good ones too. I don't think its a bad thing to let the horse sniff it if they want to, I mean, let me see it before you start swinging it behind me, kind of thinking. But yeah, if you act like its a bad thing, what else would the horse think?
When I was training my dog Schoenie the trainer said that if you comfort a dog who isn't afraid but is acting out, you're actually supporting their bad behavior. So I will say "tough sh*t" cue and/or "you're okay" in a very manner of fact way and then work through whatever it is until its a nonissue. I think that's the important thing. If they aren't in danger they're going to have learn that you won't put them in danger and they can work through it.
On that same note, I know of the "head down" cue which supposedly relaxes a horse. But Lois the BO said that she knew of another calming cue that John Lyons taught but she loaned out the disc and didn't get it back. Anyone know of another calming cue? Its gotta be something you can do from the saddle as she remembers it.
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 11, 2014 23:41:40 GMT
NHG, maybe you can help me with something else. Today I went out to the barn and since they hadn't plowed out to the round pens we didn't go there. But when we made our way toward the indoor arena I saw that across from there was a dead gelding. He had just died that morning of a heart attack and the truck was on its way, I learned later. But since I had this idea that Peaches was a handful, although she was behaving well, although more forward than I am accustomed to, I avoided walking past the gelding. I suppose that was wrong of me. I should of ignored it, right?
Then that left us with walking around in the driveway. She moves off of very little pressure. I walked backward and she was fairly okay backing up with a few corrections to get her to go straight. But standing still is not her strong point and needless to say, picking her feet isn't either. She will lift each foot but not for long, I guess it just takes time right?
I mean, all of this really just takes time, right?
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Post by diamondgirl on Nov 12, 2014 3:35:55 GMT
I know I am not NHG, but I am a firm believer in Yes it just takes time. Well that, and being matched up with your perfect person.
Ok, the first time the farrier came was about three weeks after I got Diamond. She was awful for him, and I was so embarrassed, and I apologized over and over. Adam told me, not to worry, and just keep working with her. After all he had worked on worse acting horses.
8 weeks later she was better, but still a handful. Adam assured me, he could see that she was better than the first time, but still, she was no where close to one of the worse horses he had seen. During her trim Adam asked me where I had gotten her. I told him. He suddenly stopped, stood up, and grabbed a hand full of her mane
right where the 3 black stripes are, and said, never mind, "she is one of the worse horses I have seen." He had refused to trim her and her sister again. Oh No!!!!! He teased me for awhile about not trimming that horrible mare, but he just likes to tease. (really he is such a doll he can tease me any day) 
Fast forward to 4 years later. Diamond stands like a champ, and never gives him any trouble.
Miss Peach is so lucky she found you. If anyone can allow her to be the horse she was born to be, it is you. smileys-spring-879472 |
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Post by diamondgirl on Nov 12, 2014 3:38:11 GMT
Oh and I wanted to add. I am so sorry for the owners of the gelding. How sad.
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 12, 2014 4:46:18 GMT
Sorry I didn't mean to exclude anyone I just figured nhg was the only one taking an interest. I do appreciate your input Diamond you have a lot to offer.
Peach and I have only been at this place for 3 weeks but I've wanted this for many years. I get so frustrated.
I need to give myself credit for where we both are and how far we have come through our own hard work.
Stupid winter and shirt days to add insult to injury. Soooo frustrating for something I want sooooo much.
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 12, 2014 4:47:37 GMT
Short days not shirt days lol. Many more layers than a simple shirt!
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nhg
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Post by nhg on Nov 12, 2014 15:25:32 GMT
Sorry, I had another bad day yesterday so wasn't on here much. One of the most popular ways of getting a horse to focus when they're acting up is to get them to move their feet. We do it by moving the hindquarters. I don't know if it mattered or not that you avoided going by the gelding, I wouldn't have wanted to. It's not a big deal if you and the horse agree on something and not everything has to be a training session. Sometimes it can be easier to let them do something you're not asking for and encourage it and then they're doing what you want. For example, your horse as being a twerp and backing up to avoid doing what you want. So make it back up and keep backing up even when it's going 'oh, wait, I didn't actually want to back up, I just didn't want to do what you're asking'.
This is a gray area, though, and I got into a very heated argument about this with a trainer one time. I was having trouble getting my horse to break into a lope, he just kept trotting fast. So I made him trot fast several times around the arena until he was asking to slow down. I used it as a punishment. Then we had a break for a few minutes and stood quietly and then went back to a jog and I asked for a lope and he did it. She used the analogy of how that was like asking your child to clean up their toys and when they don't you do it yourself as a punishment. I don't see the comparison. I think it would be more like getting more toys out and dumping them and saying "okay, now you can pick this up as well'. Which I wouldn't suggest for a child but we're able to talk to them and negotiate so it's different.
There are so many training techniques and not all work on all horses. You can try some and discard what doesn't work. And some will work one day but another. And you won't always do the right thing but even if you don't it likely won't be that detrimental. I once got off of my TWH stallion because we were way out in a field alone and the alfalfa was high and he started sidepassing at crazy speed when he spooked at a building. I hadn't had him very long and he'd never been a trail horse, just a show horse and he scared me badly. I was scared he was going to get tangled in the alfalfa and go down and nobody knew I was out there. I got him to stop finally and then I got off and led him home. Did I give him a lesson that he's the boss? Maybe. Is it that big of a deal? Probably not. If someone on here is training an abused horse or a mustang that's from the range or something like that it's different. My advice is for the everyday owner that has a horse that just needs a bit of tuning up. Or a young horse that's basically steady but is learning. The majority of what I've learned is from clinics and watching other people and trainers. We were very lucky to board where we did because it was a training barn so you can see all kinds of personalities both human and equine and see what works and what doesn't.
I finished the Mark Rashid book and he mentions that one of the biggest mistakes he sees people making is to stop something too soon. He gave the example of someone getting their horse used to being bathed. He said if the horse acts up and things go badly the person may decide to stop and get better organized and try it again another day. But he said they've just taught the horse that acting up gets it to stop so it will be even harder another day because then they have to get past that. I think he has a good point. |
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nhg
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Post by nhg on Nov 12, 2014 17:40:16 GMT
I should add that getting them to move their hindquarters is called disengaging the hind.
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 13, 2014 0:51:15 GMT
I'm on board with you ngh with the make it harder thing. I don't see it the way that trainer sees it either. It is very much like pouring out all of the toys. I dunno, maybe that IS a good idea! Too bad my kids are in their 30s now I would of tried it. What I did do was, "Let me help you" and I would literally stand behind them working their arms to pick up toys and put them away. For some reason they didn't like that... actually that was only Bob and only one time I'm really sorry you were having a bad day. I posted in your thread to try to be kinder to yourself. You have nothing to prove you know and we'd rather miss you and know you were resting than work too hard on our account. One nice thing is that I can see Peaches checking in with me from the corner of my eye. I think she wants to be good, I just wish things wouldn't keep getting in the way of doing something interesting. I didn't go out there today because I went to get my new glasses (uglier than sin) and hand in a couple prescriptions. I'll go out tomorrow and if I have to shovel all the way to the round pen, so be it. Andrea is going to take Peaches for 30 days, December or January, I don't know what difference one month will make. Neither bring us any closer to spring, that isn't until late May so what the hey. Unless you have some definite ideas. |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 29, 2014 22:37:35 GMT
Peaches has come so far since I started this thread. Its amazing. But then I'm out there nearly every day, no duh on how that makes a difference, huh?
She's been good at the circling game at the walk for a long time but when I ask for speed she gets dramatic. It goes from under confidence to defiance depending on the vapors I guess. This is one the things that makes her challenging because in order to give effective training I have to know what horse I'm dealing with in the moment. There are times I have to stop everything and collect myself because I'm getting stressed. Works for Peaches because as we work, then "rest" and then go back to work again we both have opportunities to collect ourselves.
Today I wanted to circle at the trot but Peaches defiantly wanted to canter and even gallop like a knucklehead, even clockwise which used to be her "good" direction. I was getting pretty dizzy and realized that I needed to come up with a different way to engage her mind in order to direct her body. She'll ignore a change in direction and barrel on through. And while I can pop the rope and get her attention it has its limitations and I'm interested in really getting to the issue rather than simply have an answer.
So tomorrow I'm going to put out these little cones in a circle and I'm going to direct the Pit in and out around the cones in a circle at the walk and trot. We'll see how that works. I also found a "bridge" that we can use so that'll add another dimension of interest.
Any other ideas?
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Post by horselady on Nov 30, 2014 0:41:58 GMT
Getting a horse to pay attention and learn is difficult. you need to get their attention. have them understand what you are asking. you need to allow them to figure out what you are saying and it takes about 10 seconds. sometimes repeat. and repeat. than if they do not pay attention. than a good yell or snap of the lead or lunge whip, than repeat again.
when you say you pop the rope. are you using the same rope as the lunge rope and you are twirling the end towards her. ??
I prefer to use lunge line and and whip so you have an extension of your hand with the whip and control the nose and feet with the lunge line. sometimes popping the end of the rope actually pulls the nose in towards you and the inside of the circle.
watch a couple of videos of a lunging lesson it is easy to do.
when working with the horses to teach them something, we need to break it down into small steps. you are doing just fine. not pushing her past her comfort zone so she panics.
and when she does go on those fast gallops on the lunge use your strenght and yank that nose to make her stop. and pull her with both hands and say whoa. stand. no talking and no stroking and no other words,
yes talking and stopping is a reward for them to stop and do a bad move again.
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nhg
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Post by nhg on Nov 30, 2014 1:04:24 GMT
I wouldn't turn with her, I'd just stand in the middle and pass the line hand to hand so I don't get dizzy. Some horses get invigorated by lunging fast, not tired.
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 30, 2014 1:26:04 GMT
I don't twirl the end of the rope I have my $6 Fleet Farm whippy stick. Its very light weight with just a twit of a piece of "string" at the end but very effective and yeah, its a very good extension of my hand AND its red and white  Yeah, today was Peaches day for "I wanna do it MY way" for whatever reason. There will be those days. But it was hard on me  I understand what you are saying about rewarding her with a stop or a turn. She only got those when she was going correctly. I gotta say though, these jumps and skips are rather pretty to watch. I think she's more athletic than she looks. |
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Post by horselady on Nov 30, 2014 1:48:06 GMT
Sure it is pretty to watch them jump and twirl. but they need to learn to do it on their time and not our. and the stick. sounds very effective. and i think you need to give yourself more credit for working with her and having her come around to your way of thinking. remember there is no wrong way. only the way for the two of you to connect. and still get the final result.  |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 30, 2014 2:15:34 GMT
Thanks, then Dramamine it is! We did other "I want to do this to you and you're going to let me". Like fiddling with her lips and holding her nozzle. While I think its a good idea to get her the idea that I can manipulate her parts because we never know when we need to give medicine, wormer, etc. But I gotta admit that I love her fuzzy and soft parts. Lucky for me she likes kisses on her eye lids. |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Nov 30, 2014 22:29:32 GMT
Kinda got colder and windy when I wasn't looking. We played around in the outdoor arena anyway. For whatever reason she traded her immediate Whoa with keeping her gait in control. I'm willing to bet we'll have both before summer one way or another  (I just love that little girl (the icon)! She is just too darn cute... and Peachie too). Now here is an example of horsie reasoning. I gave Peachie some bubble wrap. She bit it and it popped - absolutely no reaction and then she popped a few more, then she dropped it to stamp on it and popped several more, no problem, played around with it and then I picked it up and popped one myself, eyes bug out, head goes up and she backs a few paces. What a goofball! |
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Post by horselady on Dec 1, 2014 1:07:56 GMT
How funny is that to give bubble wrap to have them get used to noise. my horses would be running for the hills.lol  |
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hugs
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Post by hugs on Dec 1, 2014 18:32:27 GMT
Peachie is at the trainers stable, Boulder Pointe, now. They started loading at 9AM the place is at least 30 minutes from the boarding stable and I get a text that she arrived safe and sound at 10.15AM. Not too bad. Lois said it wasn't easy on Peach and she hates to see them upset. But we've all heard of worse and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt Lois did a fine job.
I bring Peaches tack and grooming supplies after work today.
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I understand what you are saying about rewarding her with a stop or a turn. She only got those when she was going correctly. I gotta say though, these jumps and skips are rather pretty to watch. I think she's more athletic than she looks.
(I just love that little girl (the icon)! She is just too darn cute... and Peachie too). 