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Post by abpalis on May 14, 2015 6:26:00 GMT
Fox is extremely herd bound so far. If I take Prince out to the hay field to ride she will run laps in her paddock like she will never see him again. And if I tie her up alone she will call and paw and stress right out. But I think she still wants to overpower me like Lipizzan said or at least if that's not the case does not see me as leader in any sense. I'm not sure she's dominant but I am definitely not her alpha horse either. And like my mom said she will absolutely not give in to the usual ground work for "joining up" or learning who's the leader or even really respect work, when I get more forceful with asking for respect like staying out of my space she then acts scared of me and I'd rather not gain respect out of fear, plus usually she forgets by the next time I work with her and I start all over. I think I'm going to do some research into different types of groundwork and try some different stuff and see what might work to crack her. Every trainer out there has different theories, I like Stacey Westfall's work so I might look into it a bit more.
Mares definitely tend to be worse with this stuff but that's not to say there isn't cranky or dominant geldings out there either. My previous horse Hemi wasn't dominant and really a big puppy but he wasn't overly respectful either, he was huge at 16hh with a build like a bulldog he was a big lug and he'd knock you a round if you weren't careful. He didn't seem to "get" groundwork either, he'd do it but just look at you with a dopey expression like "I'm not sure why we're doing this stuff but I'll do it cause you asked"
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Post by abpalis on May 14, 2015 6:29:58 GMT
Oh and here's a pic of her being ridden the other night for those not on my fb to show you she does ride well in an arena. The outdoor arena is a dirt ring. But out in the field away from her buddies or other horses who start to call she freaks out and when a horse rushes the fence to see her she nearly comes out of her skin.
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Post by horselover4life on May 14, 2015 10:01:02 GMT
Have you tried any supplements like Moody Mare or something along those products?
Does any of her "being her" coincide with her cycle or her witchiness have anything to do with her ovaries making her so sore she is fearful to move, or her brain unpredictable from water retention and mood swings occur?
I use to ride a reining mare sounded much like Fox....
In desperation she was put on ....Regumate.....once on it for a few days she became a different horse to ride, to work around and enjoy. Once on it though she stayed on it so she could compete... Expensive I believe and those who administer it need to know how to handle safely as it works on all females!!
Have you kept a journal of "blow-ups" and when and where, how they came to be to see if you have a pattern?
Agree, the mare is in charge of the herd of horses.
The stallion is there for protection and for sex when and if she wants it....
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Post by abpalis on May 14, 2015 16:36:48 GMT
Funny you should mention it I just started her on Be Cool herbs with a little bit of step 6 about 3 days ago. She does get a bit more antsy with her cycle but she's like this all the time. A blow up journal is a good idea though. Might see a trend then.
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572 
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Post by Lipizzan on May 14, 2015 16:58:49 GMT
First of all- GORGEOUS HORSE
A good horse have hundreds of shortcomings, the bad one only one-no good.
So be patient, I like your idea on different methods. Eventually she will give in and your work will pay off.
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nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
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Post by nhg on May 14, 2015 19:04:48 GMT
When we were talking about her the other night I quoted Forrest Gump. Pretty is as pretty does. Isn't that where that came from or am I wrong?
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Post by abpalis on May 14, 2015 19:43:18 GMT
Forrest gump was 'stupid is as stupid does' lol. But your quote makes sense.
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Post by horselady on May 15, 2015 0:43:06 GMT
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Lipizzan
Junior Member
Europe, Croatia
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Lipizzan on May 15, 2015 9:05:21 GMT
I like this a lot. Never even thought about it in this way. I like how the author say that horses are trying to calm us down. Heh.
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hugs
Junior Member
Posts: 2,647
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Post by hugs on May 15, 2015 10:52:26 GMT
That article explains a LOT! I've posted it on my FB page with this note:
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Post by horselady on May 15, 2015 11:17:48 GMT
you all know my favorite trainer is Guy Mcclean he takes a not touched horse (no riding. or saddle or any training other than personal contact with human) in other words clean slate and not in a round pen either. and withing a day or an hour is doing miracles. i have seen him do this . no pulling no yanking and no yelling. just a basic calm approach on the horses terms but learning. on day 3 after about 3 hours work that horse is riding in tandem or as a team with him and his other horses like they have been together for months practicing www.facebook.com/GuyMcLeanHorsemanship?fref=tsi believe. calm, ask. horse receives question and than it is up to us to have that horse understand without pressure . once a horse has pressure the brain does not absorb. it will react. |
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Post by horselover4life on May 15, 2015 14:27:40 GMT
Article sounds great but.....
Can someone tell me how to transfer the quiet on the ground to quiet astride? 
My sons horse...quiet on the ground.
He walks beside me or Michael over anything, will do anything asked, looks but takes the cue of relax, it won't get you....
Get astride and a whole different animal emerges....
I am getting really tired and frustrated at the "fear" over and over and over again and again at the same thing. We introduce, we examine, we taste and then he goes, HORSES CHOICE... if we do a circle and come back he is right back to the same "fear" we just did and did and did.... and I mean riding a 30 meter circle and this is what happens.
A new supplement arrives in a few days.
We have changed his feed and that helped some, not enough though.
We tried some herbal combination supplement...no help.
Horse checks out 100% sound, no eye or hearing losses detected. Nothing out of align needing chiro, he was checked {I really don't believe in it but gave it a whirl and chance..}
We pulled blood and found a deficiency...could it be that...maybe, vet said give it a go. There is no real reasoning for this behavior though we can find.
He is just ever on guard and edge...Suggestions.... any suggestions?It really stinks sometimes not knowing a animals background and what they experienced before.
Not many holes in training, he rides when he is on, great....
When he is being a snot he is real big goober of a snot!! 
So, you are not the only one with horse issues....
Mine I can't attribute to hormone hysterics either as a gelding...
I feel your pain and frustration too!!
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Post by carshon on May 15, 2015 18:18:56 GMT
Horselover I have no real advice. How old is the horse? My gelding (Naughty Steve) was very very much like that - to the point that I would ride and cry at the same time. Riding with friends and he would just be such a handful I kept telling them I had better not ride. Being the great friends they are they insisted that I continue to bring him along. Slowly but surely as he matured and we rode together he has gotten SO much better. Not perfect - but not the maniac I was riding - who would snort and shy at a horse he rode with every week for months! Who would shy at the gate he went in and out of every single day to the pasture- he tore a cemented in fence post out of the ground when I raised my hand to brush his back- We raised this fool- he was born here and it just seemed like I was dealing with a naughty teenage boy!
It does not sound like you are doing anything wrong - just stick with it.
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Post by horselover4life on May 15, 2015 20:50:12 GMT
carshon,....he is not a baby.
Going by teeth which is all we can do... 18 or 19 we believe.
Positive he is 15 but not yet 20.
mini-graphics-smileys-275872 ....sometimes I would love to do this to him, it is soooooo frustrating!! smileys-sad-593832
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nhg
Junior Member
Posts: 2,429
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Post by nhg on May 15, 2015 21:19:09 GMT
Very interesting article, thanks! What she describes about herself turning away and not making eye contact with loud people is what would be called a defense mechanism. Anyway, last night was farrier night and after I was sweeping (Yes! I can do it, sort of!) and I showed the broom to Fox because you never know what she'll be scared of and she seemed curious. She just stood there blinking at me. You know how they can blink so you can hear the plink plink noise of it? Big eyes, Miss Innocence. She wasn't too bad for the farrier. He's a good guy with lots of patience but persistent.
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Post by abpalis on May 16, 2015 1:27:09 GMT
You should take a video when you can of your sons horse horselover when he's being a weiner like that. I'd be curious to see what he's doing and if he's anticipating something to spook at. A friends horse does that, but it's gotten to a point that I think for she's always thinking and ready for her horse to spook now so she spooks more than every because her horse feels her tension and thinks there must then be something to spook at so she spooks at the little stuff since she really can't find anything to be really scared of. For her it's a circle that's tough to break.
Do you have him face the fear every time? Maybe he uses it as an excuse to stop working?
Fox did alright in the barn last night but Prince was in there. She might have been a knob if that wasn't the case. She isn't really an overly spooky horse but she certainly is worse the more sensitive and reactive she's feeling that day. The other night she was nervous when my friend took the cooler off her horse. So she handed it to me and I outright tossed it up and on top of her without letting her sniff it, she jumped a bit and had this shocked expression of OMG but immediately realised it wasn't hurting her and relaxed.
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Post by horselover4life on May 16, 2015 2:17:36 GMT
You're right Heather.....
This is his excuse to get out of work.
He is also extremely herd bound. Hysterical if he is left alone now, yet he came from being a only horse situation...
Who ever had him before...well, I am told it was a teenager who was rough to him and it was left there and open for interpretation.
Obviously he learned the trick of scare the rider and they get off.
He has tried that with my son, scared him good but he stayed on and kept riding.... a few times now pulled that stunt unsuccessfully.
He has tried it with me when we were working at a faster gait...got me off twice and twice I got off the ground and got back on. Horse was not expecting that I could tell.
He was expecting a beating...every fiber of his body was cued for a blow and beating..not from us.
What he got was a ride session that had us both exhausted.
If he settled we quit. If he looked for a excuse or pulled a dirty trick spook he worked longer.
He was submissive but still stupid-spooky.... no excuse.
I'm just getting tired of the prolonged antics.
He has a little reprieve happening till the new supplement comes and he has it administered long enough for a change, if there is one, to start taking place.
If he not change, the game is up and I'm holding the trump card. He will be sold, period!
I am not the rider I once was anymore. I am older, have had serious injuries to my spine and knees, don't bounce so easily and realize I'm not invincible.... and I fear for my son. My son above all else needs a quiet steady honest horse who not pull this crap!!
So.... a few weeks and we will have a determination in this house of stay or go....
As for video....have the camera but it is me who does the taping.
I'm not always able to do that with my sons needs needing my full attention and not looking through a viewfinder...
If I can, I will tape and send it along, but no promises..
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Post by abpalis on May 16, 2015 4:12:00 GMT
My trick for this kind of undersaddle foul play is tight circles. Doesn't work on every horse but works on a lot of them. If he pulls the spook trick (especially after he's already spooked at it once and seen that it wont eat him) then I'd put him in an immediate tight circle about 3 times. My coach from years ago called them doughnut circles. As though you are going tight around a barrel but not nose to your knee tight. She said this small working circle gets the focus back and is hard work. You keep both legs on for forward movement so they don't cheat and roll back or spin. Hemi used to think that if he fell apart enough in training he didn't have to keep working, he'd drift his bending circles or fight the bit and a couple of "doughnut circles" got him focused again. Same with my friend's horse that spooks, whenever I ride her and she thinks she should get antsy I put her in these circles and she settles and gets her head back. They have to think to do such a tight circle and can't concentrate on other things like dirty tricks to get out of work when they do it.
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redzip
Junior Member
Posts: 1,701
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Post by redzip on May 16, 2015 11:44:59 GMT
How did I miss this?? Sounds just like Zippy was,.., BEFORE he went to the last trainer,., its very frustrating. I 'm not sure WHAT my trainer did exactly, but Zippy came back with A LOT more confidence. She just told me to TRUST him more, and I did, and have been since. I had to change MY WAYS with him, not him for me. I had asked her to expose him to everything, and he got ridden everyday. I do think that calming supplements help, and I feed a daily one to Zippy, but mostly its about TIME, TRUST and CONFIDENCE. Which probably=s LEADERSHIP in the horse's eyes. I also AGREE with HL's article on Calming Cues. I was able to get away with BIGGER, LOUDER behavior with Red, not so with Zippy. He understands the question, and we get along a lot better when I give him the time to find the answer. Zippy sounds very similar to Fox. It was a communication thing with he and I,.., I was expecting him to be like Red, but he is Zippy, totally different animal. I needed to change my thinking and my cue system, and recognize that he DID hear me, and understand the request. I treated his, at least what seemed as, inattentiveness as disobedience, but in reality, he understood and was working on it. I was pushing him, and he was trying to please. I am much quieter with my body language now. I realized that by being BIGGER and LOUDER, I was actually contributing to his fear and distrust of me Good luck with Fox, I think the feedlot sounds like a good idea too. |
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Post by horselover4life on May 16, 2015 11:45:00 GMT
Heather... I'll try it, sounds like good "punishment" for not paying attention. 
I think I am also going to go back to a bit and stop with the bitless bridle for his comfort  ....
If he face fusses, tough, maybe his mind will be more on what he is supposed to be doing than looking for "out of work".....
Did you ever just do periodic tight circles randomly like that to refocus and toss him off-guard?
I don't go boringly around a ring, but I need to do some ring work of gait change, speed rating and such, that is when he is at his worst, when his mind wanders...
Now that I know he does this, I am also on guard and he senses my "guardedness" I'm sure, so that doesn't help the situation either.
I can say thankfully he is not a LARGE horse {15 hands} so not to far to land.  ....
I can say it must be a  sight to see when I depart the back and so ungracefully face plant! laughing
Now I no longer ride in certain {slippery material} pants but took out my breeches and chaps. Since then he hasn't dumped me but he has got a butt whooped of work playing BS games.... 
Heather, we will both figure out these horses yet, if it kills us!! 757724
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sight to see when I depart the back and so ungracefully face plant! laughing 